How Many cattle to run a cattle ranch

[Brandonm22]

Now for a short answer to your question, 150 head of cows on a 1400 acre ranch doesn't sound like enough animals to me, I'm running nearly 100 head of cows on half that number of acres. (on a good year 80 cows, and 80 calves, and three bulls = 163 head under the most ideal circumstances) However it all depends on the amount of groceries you have out in your pastures, some places wouldn't support more head than what you have. I'm guessing your stepdad had been farming for enough years to know how many head his ground will support, and had the number adjusted accordingly.

I looked up Buford on Wikipedia (population 2, a gas station/trading post, and a Pyramid) and the town is at 8000 feet above sea level. While Sammy's ranch might be the bottoms surrounding the mountain, I suspect that we are talking about high altitude country. If correct I am guessing that Sammy's stepfather's 150 cows: 1400 acres is close to the maximum stocking rate. The bad news for Sammy is that I suspect winter is just about here for that high up so he/she better find some way to get hay to those cows on a regular basis....soon. The good news is that this is relatively close to both Laramie and Cheyenne via Interstate 80 (Buford is the highest elevation on I-80) so this ranch could be worth even more than my earlier estimate.

 

[HerefordSire]

wondering how many cattle you would have to sell per year to keep a business going and to make a living off of it if this is a family ranch. also what are other ways to make money off of a ranch like getting free range chickens and things like that, that would not cost alot to start up but would make a profit in the end?

Grab the books. Study the books. Determine the amount of estate tax involved and if the cash is there to pay this. In my opinion, there is not much money in ranching unless you are increasing assets by hiding normally taxable income.

 

[redcowsrule33]

Check out this article in last month's Drovers mag.-

http://www.drovers.com/news_editorial.a ... ent_id=805

Fairly broad and generalized but it gives you some perspective.

 

[msscamp]

I looked up Buford on Wikipedia (population 2, a gas station/trading post, and a Pyramid) and the town is at 8000 feet above sea level. While Sammy's ranch might be the bottoms surrounding the mountain, I suspect that we are talking about high altitude country.

We are - right close to the Rocky Mountains.

If correct I am guessing that Sammy's stepfather's 150 cows: 1400 acres is close to the maximum stocking rate.

Actually, I'm thinking Sammy's stepfather could very well be a bit overstocked. I know the stocking rate in my area is 1 A.U./33 acres. Sammy is roughly 115 miles southwest of me, and I don't quite see how the stocking rate is going to change from 33 acres to 9.32 . Granted, stocking rates are going to vary from area to area, and that area gets quite a bit more snow than we do, and they also get a fair bit more rain - but I don't see how that could increase the stocking rate to 1 A.U./9.32 acres. Not when the average yearly rainfall in Wyoming is roughly 10"/year.


The bad news for Sammy is that I suspect winter is just about here for that high up so he/she better find some way to get hay to those cows on a regular basis....soon. The good news is that this is relatively close to both Laramie and Cheyenne via Interstate 80 (Buford is the highest elevation on I-80) so this ranch could be worth even more than my earlier estimate.

You are again correct - on both winter, and the value of the ranch. There have been a number of ranches in Wyoming that have sold out to land developers, who in turn are subdividing them and selling them as "ranchettes". The bad news about being located between Laramie and Cheyenne is that hay is probably going to be higher, and winter is going to be brutal.

 

[Herefords.US]

Actually, I'm thinking Sammy's stepfather could very well be a bit overstocked. I know the stocking rate in my area is 1 A.U./33 acres. Sammy is roughly 115 miles southwest of me, and I don't quite see how the stocking rate is going to change from 33 acres to 9.32 . Granted, stocking rates are going to vary from area to area, and that area gets quite a bit more snow than we do, and they also get a fair bit more rain - but I don't see how that could increase the stocking rate to 1 A.U./9.32 acres. Not when the average yearly rainfall in Wyoming is roughly 10"/year.

I suspect you are right. Even if a river/live creek runs through the property, the stocking rate should be much more in line with yours in that area - and he'd better already have plenty of hay put up for the winter.

My suggestion would be to sell the cows now, then determine what he wants to do about the ranch and restock in the spring if he wants to become a rancher. And spend this winter learning what he needs to know.

George

 

[HobbyFarm]

Tithing is only for people that make over $50,000 a year. That won't be an issue here.

Funny thing, had the conversation once with my minister as we were beginning stewardship drive. Do you tithe net or gross??

My answer, what would you like in return 10 fold, net or gross?



Sorry to hear about your step father, you & your family are in my prayers.

 

[auctionboy]

Bed and breakfast, dude ranch, hunting rights, hunting bed and breakfast are some good ways to make income that could be done at the same time as cattle ranching.

 

[skyline]

Sammy, I'm very sorry for your loss. I know when my Dad died, it took me several years to get my head screwed back on to be able to make good decisions.

We don't have enough information about you situation to help you much at this point and I certainly understand if you don't want to post a lot of details about this on the internet.

My advice is this. You need to find some folks that you trust and lean on them right now. Find someone that knows a lot about cattle that you trust and work through these questions with them:

1. What would be involved in running a cattle ranch on this scale?
2. Is that what I want to do with my life? To some, the situation that you describe would be a dream come true. To others, it would be like living in hell.
3. If you decide to keep the ranch and the cows, develop some proforma income statements with this person to give you a blueprint for your next year. It's a lot cheaper to work through mistakes on paper than in real life. I would email mine, but my little operation in East Texas would not look anything like yours up there.

Edited to include this... consult with a CPA and figure out the estate tax issue. If the money is not available to pay the estate taxes without selling out, all of the above may be a moot point...

Best wishes to you and let us know if you have any questions that we can help you with. The folks on this board have been very good to me over the years and have been a great help in getting me up and running.

 

[skyline]

Tithing is only for people that make over $50,000 a year. That won't be an issue here.

Don't recall that one, must have been sleeping thru that sermon. ;-)

Roughly paraphrasing Dave Ramsey..... You pay for food first, electricity second, Uncle Sam 3rd, transportation 4th, keep a roof over your head, put clothes on your back, get current on your debts, pay for health insurance, build up an emergency fund, and by now I have spent all of Sammy's $28,000. Jesus will understand.

I'm a big fan of Dave Ramsey. But I must have missed the part about not tithing if you make less than $50k? Or perhaps you're joking?

 

[Herefords.US]

Sammy, there's been some good advice given in this thread.

But here is what I see as your paramount problem that needs to be addressed promptly:

You have 150 head of cattle that are at risk of going through the winter at a place where winters can be challenging to even the most acclimated and astute cattleman. In Buford, WY ranching in the winter months cannot be a weekend or after work vocation. At times the cows are totally dependent on their owners to provide what they need. There needs to be enough hay and winter feed stockpiled to guarantee survival through the winter and someone there 24/7, that's had experience with both cattle and the climate, to properly deal with both.

If you aren't aware of exactly when they are going to be calving, then that presents a whole additional level of concern. Some herds in climates such as that calve in calving barns during the inclement conditions of winter.

If you cannot supply ANY one of these things I've listed, I believe the prudent thing to do is to liquidate all the cows before harsh winter sets in. Doing any less will invite catastophe.

George

 

[Brandonm22]

I don't think Dave has ever told anybody not to tithe; BUT he does say to prioritize. Go back to the original scenario. Sammy's theoretical ranch makes $28,000. Sammy probably eats $200 a month in food and household supplies (that leaves $25,600) Sammy's power and lights probably cost $200 a month ($23,200), Sammys cell phones are probably $100 a month ($22,100), Sammy owes federal income taxes of ~$2000 (my guess) ($20100), Sammy owes $4284 in self employment taxes ($15,816), luckily for Sammy there is no state income taxes in Wyoming, figure a truck payment of $200 a month (used) ($13,416), $800 in truck insurance ($12,616), $200 a month in fuel and oil ($10,216), a set of tires costs ~$600, figure a new set every other year ($9,916), homeowner's insurance costs me ~$1050 ($8966), clothes is ~$40 a month if you aren't picky (and don't have kids) ($8486). I figure it generally pays in the long run to keep your family relationships cordial so I am generally going to spend at least $150 on gifts at Christmas and ~$50 on birthdays (big boxes but cheap gifts). We got $8286 left.....IF Sammy has no debts (and from what I can see that is getting to be very few Americans). IF your personal emergency fund is at least six months of personal income then Sammy needs $14,000 to have a fully funded personal emergency fund. Sammy is also a business person so needs a business emergency fund of at least six months of business related expenses (last time I had a tractor overhauled it cost me $6850) so needs ~$21,000 there. That's $35,000 Sammy needs (BAD) before giving or investing or personal spending like movies, eating out, VCRs, music, etc. I figure it will take Sammy six years to fund both emergency funds (figuring that there will be some bumps on the way) before he/she has any discretionary spending, giving, or investing. This is a start up business and a startup household and to get it going is going to require some cold hearted dicipline. Give more when you have more to make up for the lean years when you didn't have it to give.

 

[1982vett]

I don't think Dave has ever told anybody not to tithe; BUT he does say to prioritize. Go back to the original scenario. Sammy's theoretical ranch makes $28,000. Sammy probably eats $200 a month in food and household supplies (that leaves $25,600) Sammy's power and lights probably cost $200 a month ($23,200), Sammys cell phones are probably $100 a month ($22,100), Sammy owes federal income taxes of ~$2000 (my guess) ($20100), Sammy owes $4284 in self employment taxes ($15,816), luckily for Sammy there is no state income taxes in Wyoming, figure a truck payment of $200 a month (used) ($13,416), $800 in truck insurance ($12,616), $200 a month in fuel and oil ($10,216), a set of tires costs ~$600, figure a new set every other year ($9,916), homeowner's insurance costs me ~$1050 ($8966), clothes is ~$40 a month if you aren't picky (and don't have kids) ($8486). I figure it generally pays in the long run to keep your family relationships cordial so I am generally going to spend at least $150 on gifts at Christmas and ~$50 on birthdays (big boxes but cheap gifts). We got $8286 left.....IF Sammy has no debts (and from what I can see that is getting to be very few Americans). IF your personal emergency fund is at least six months of personal income then Sammy needs $14,000 to have a fully funded personal emergency fund. Sammy is also a business person so needs a business emergency fund of at least six months of business related expenses (last time I had a tractor overhauled it cost me $6850) so needs ~$21,000 there. That's $35,000 Sammy needs (BAD) before giving or investing or personal spending like movies, eating out, VCRs, music, etc. I figure it will take Sammy six years to fund both emergency funds (figuring that there will be some bumps on the way) before he/she has any discretionary spending, giving, or investing. This is a start up business and a startup household and to get it going is going to require some cold hearted dicipline. Give more when you have more to make up for the lean years when you didn't have it to give.

True. Tithing is ones own belief. I understand all about what Dave is saying and am all for one being prudent and selfsufficient. But on a higher level, if you wish, their is more to be understood and more to life. Again reference the widows mite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesson_of_the_widow's_mite If you understand this lesson, I find it hard to believe... well saying anything more would be judgemental.

 

[Jogeephus]

I don't think Dave has ever told anybody not to tithe; BUT he does say to prioritize. Go back to the original scenario. Sammy's theoretical ranch makes $28,000. Sammy probably eats $200 a month in food and household supplies (that leaves $25,600) Sammy's power and lights probably cost $200 a month ($23,200), Sammys cell phones are probably $100 a month ($22,100), Sammy owes federal income taxes of ~$2000 (my guess) ($20100), Sammy owes $4284 in self employment taxes ($15,816), luckily for Sammy there is no state income taxes in Wyoming, figure a truck payment of $200 a month (used) ($13,416), $800 in truck insurance ($12,616), $200 a month in fuel and oil ($10,216), a set of tires costs ~$600, figure a new set every other year ($9,916), homeowner's insurance costs me ~$1050 ($8966), clothes is ~$40 a month if you aren't picky (and don't have kids) ($8486). I figure it generally pays in the long run to keep your family relationships cordial so I am generally going to spend at least $150 on gifts at Christmas and ~$50 on birthdays (big boxes but cheap gifts). We got $8286 left.....IF Sammy has no debts (and from what I can see that is getting to be very few Americans). IF your personal emergency fund is at least six months of personal income then Sammy needs $14,000 to have a fully funded personal emergency fund. Sammy is also a business person so needs a business emergency fund of at least six months of business related expenses (last time I had a tractor overhauled it cost me $6850) so needs ~$21,000 there. That's $35,000 Sammy needs (BAD) before giving or investing or personal spending like movies, eating out, VCRs, music, etc. I figure it will take Sammy six years to fund both emergency funds (figuring that there will be some bumps on the way) before he/she has any discretionary spending, giving, or investing. This is a start up business and a startup household and to get it going is going to require some cold hearted dicipline. Give more when you have more to make up for the lean years when you didn't have it to give.

True. Tithing is ones own belief. I understand all about what Dave is saying and am all for one being prudent and selfsufficient. But on a higher level, if you wish, their is more to be understood and more to life. Again reference the widows mite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesson_of_the_widow's_mite If you understand this lesson, I find it hard to believe... well saying anything more would be judgemental.

I heard an interesting study conducted by three universities on the subject of giving today. All studies arrived at the same conclusion which was that money did not buy happiness but giving did. All studies showed that people were happier when they shared their blessings. It was interesting. I won't go into the subject of tithing as it is not mentioned in the New Testament and I chose to go by the teachings of Jesus.

 

[HobbyFarm]

All I can go on is what God has provided for me and my family. Tithing is the least that I can do.

 

[spoon]

Tithing is only for people that make over $50,000 a year. That won't be an issue here.

Don't recall that one, must have been sleeping thru that sermon. ;-)

Roughly paraphrasing Dave Ramsey..... You pay for food first, electricity second, Uncle Sam 3rd, transportation 4th, keep a roof over your head, put clothes on your back, get current on your debts, pay for health insurance, build up an emergency fund, and by now I have spent all of Sammy's $28,000. Jesus will understand.

Dave Is wrong. You tithe God first. After all it is ALL His really if he wants it. He created it.

 

[Brandonm22]

I heard an interesting study conducted by three universities on the subject of giving today. All studies arrived at the same conclusion which was that money did not buy happiness but giving did. All studies showed that people were happier when they shared their blessings. It was interesting. I won't go into the subject of tithing as it is not mentioned in the New Testament and I chose to go by the teachings of Jesus.

I have not advised ANYONE on how to be happy OR how to achieve everlasting life. The only thing I am concerned with in this thread is how for this business too survive and IF you don't have deep pockets going in....my suggestion is to be as miserly as humanly possible. I apologize if that conflicts with what they taught in Sunday school or if that steps on some people's theology. IF Sammy wants this ranch to become his or her occupation then whatever capital Sammy has on hand after paying for the estate costs and marketing this fall's calf crop has to be enough to carry them through the next year.

I have never been to a Church that had money problems. We generally always have more than we need. We probably broke the $1 million mark for the year to date when this month is totaled, though it is never as much as we would like to give (and we support a battered women's shelter, a food bank, a ministry for the retarded, a religious school, disaster assistance, the homeless, missions, etc in addition to our own mortgage and operating expenses) and if half the families registered actually made a pledge it WOULD be an alltime record. Those of us who DO pledge and contribute work from the assumption that the members who don't give (or don't give much) NEED it. Sometimes that's not true. Certainly, somebody trying to start a business they aren't completely familiar with and maybe family on $28g or less probably NEEDS whatever they take in.

 

[msscamp]

Go back to the original scenario. Sammy's theoretical ranch makes $28,000.

I don't mean to bust anyone's chops, nor rain on anyone's parade, but Sammy's theoretical ranch only makes $28,000 IF he/she has the knowledge/experience to keep those cows/calves, stockers, or whatever he/she is running alive over the winter.

 

[Busterz]

Sell the cattle (I am assuming the 150 was total head, cows, calves and bulls, considering what the stocking rate probably is there).
Pay the property taxes.
Rent the ranch until you figure out what you want to do. Planning could take well over a year so it buys some time. I doubt it will be too hard to rent. Seems like there is always somebody. (Try to rent to someone good though, look at their pastures and see what condition they are in.)

*Alot depends on whether there is debt or not on the land.

 

[warrington]

In fact Dave is correct. He stated on Friday that the first 10 percent of each check should go directly to your church. He did preface this statement with He is a Christian and believes that his faith has got him where he is. And if it wasnt for Jesus Christ he would not have been blessed with good fortunes. Sorry about the rant, I just wanted to clear up a misunderstanding.

 

[skyline]

How many cattle would you recommend having and being able to work a regular job as well making $50k

If you assume that you can clear $100 per calf (profit, not gross) per year, you'd be looking at 550 momma cows +/-. If you think you can clear $200 per calf per year, you'd be looking at around 300 momma cows. Either way, I'm not sure how you could work a regular job and look after that many cows. In my part of the country, you would have to have your land paid for and your infrastructure in place and paid for in order to clear that kind of money per calf.