How Genetic Defect Status is Presented

[inyati13]

I have been looking at the way genetic defect information is presented by AAA and ASA. I have talked to ASA in phone conversation. In my opinion, their format is not as strong as AAA in how data is presented.

Look up Progress, AAA 16290873.
His status is as follows:
DDC-CAF-M1F-NHF

This is a Select Sires Bull. I exchanged e-mails with the SS Beef Sire Analyst, Joe Myers. Joe stated the following:
Every SS bull has been tested for all known genetic defects.
AAA lists 14 "known common genetic defects". Select Sires says they tested this bull for all known genetic defects. I assume SS submitted that data to AAA. To be proactive, AAA should list "Tested Free" TF for each of those data points. Or if AAA has performed a pedigree search and eliminated the possibility of the defect in the animals lineage, then proactively list it as "Documented Free" DF. For example, if SS submitted a test result for AM and the test was negative, then include AMF in the status of this bull.

Here is what I see for some animals on the ASA TraitTrac:
No genetic test information is on file for this animal.
At this time it is assumed to be free of defects currently being monitored because:
a. there are no known carriers in its lineage and/or
b. if there are carriers in its lineage, intermediary ancestors have been tested free of the defect and/or
c. it does not trace back (within 4 generations) to a population that is at risk of carrying a genetic defect being monitored.

There are clear holes in the semantics of that paragraph. What is clear: The animal has not been tested. Also, they are assuming the animal is free of defects. Granted, that assumption is based on a pedigree search but how well researched is that. We all know what assume means. :D

I plan to post information on this thread as I get it.

 

[elkwc]

I have found some problems with how the AHA lists the known defects in Herefords. In my opinion as a commercial breeder is any known defect should be denoted on the papers. A prospective buyer shouldn't have to do research to find out if their prospective purchase is free of known defects or not. Again just my opinion.

 

[Lucky_P]

Ron,
As you presented it, the SS guy just said the bulls were tested - he didn't say they were 'free' of all defect carrier status.
Or did I miss something?

 

[bse]

Not sure what your asking. if the animal is free of whatever defect by parentage they dont have to be tested so Progress may have been born after AM both parents are free so no need to check. when a new defect comes out the bull studs check everything to clean them because at that point they dont know if the parents are clean so the test them all. dont think SS would spend the money if they knew he was clean. If somethiung hasnt been checked it will say AMP, NHP, DDP or whatever in the top parentheses of the AAA papers.
The ASA seems has went backwards they used to have a color on the trait trac, Green meant no problem, Yellow you need to look and so on but from what i seen today you need to look at them all.

 

[inyati13]

Ron,
As you presented it, the SS guy just said the bulls were tested - he didn't say they were 'free' of all defect carrier status.
Or did I miss something?

You are correct. Joe Myers stated that some of their bulls are not free of genetic defects. SS continues to sell semen to those who want it even when the bull is a known carrier, i.e., the Bull Progress is listed as DDC in their catalog but he said there is continued demand for his semen by those who want to utilize his genetics. In fact, he said Predestined, Progress, New Day 454 and Ingenuity are DDC. My reference to SS is for example to demonstrate that they provide AAA data on all known genetic defects (approximately 14 being tracted by AAA) but if you pull up a SS bull in the AAA data base rarely do they present the results for the defects tested.

To be clear, Mr. Myers did not say all their data is negative. He did state and I quote from his e-mail, " Every SS bull has been tested for all known genetic defects."

My point is; why is not all the data presented whether it be positive or negative.

 

[inyati13]

Not sure what your asking. if the animal is free of whatever defect by parentage they dont have to be tested so Progress may have been born after AM both parents are free so no need to check. when a new defect comes out the bull studs check everything to clean them because at that point they dont know if the parents are clean so the test them all. dont think SS would spend the money if they knew he was clean. If somethiung hasnt been checked it will say AMP, NHP, DDP or whatever in the top parentheses of the AAA papers.
The ASA seems has went backwards they used to have a color on the trait trac, Green meant no problem, Yellow you need to look and so on but from what i seen today you need to look at them all.

bse, I understand that a negative determination for genetic defects can be arrived at in at least two manners:
1. A test
2. By screening the pedigree and making a documented determination that the lineage is free of the defect.

That is not my point. My point is simply that the results are not always reported by the Institutions such as AAA or ASA. In regard to SS not spending the money to do the tests, according to Joe Myers, they do test all the bulls in their line-up. Here is the quote from his e-mail: "Every SS bull has been tested for all known genetic defects." That is hopefully the correct interpretation of that sentence. It does not seem to matter when they were born.

You have that wrong on the "potential" designation. When P is used as in CAP, AMP, DDP, etc. it means there are ancestors in the lineage that are potential carriers. It does not mean that were not tested for the defect as you stated.

bse, you and I disagree on the color deal. I think they went forward not backwards. I spoke to Sheldon Ross at ASA last week on the phone. I ask what happened to the color codes. He said the board of directors of ASA decided that too many users were confused by the colors. I happen to agree because users were seeing the green and assuming they were good. It is not that simple.

I plan to dig further on this. Although Mr Myers does not represent AAA, he stated in an e-mail to me that AAA does not present results for those defects that have not been documented in the lineage. I hope to verify that as it would help answer my question.

 

[cow pollinater]

My point is; why is not all the data presented whether it be positive or negative.

Sales...
In fifteen years of dealing with genetics companies I think I've had dealings with all of the major ones. So far I trust ABS the most but I keep close tabs on who is in charge there as it's the people as much as it is the company themselves.
As much as I trust AI to offer genetic improvement, there are a lot of people in my industry who don't give a rat's a$$ if you're satisfied with your cattle beyond what it means in future sales for them. It's no different than a car salesman telling you why that car will work for you. They won't tell you the downside unless they have to OR have learned that happy customers are repeat customers.
It seems like genetic companies go through phases where they push sales at all costs and then come back to doing things right when they figure out that they've shot themselves in the foot.
Always, always, always do your own homework.

 

[bse]

The P means somwhere in there pedigree there are potential untested carriers or known carriers and that animal is a potential carrier until tested C carrier or F free and until that test is done to clear the pedigree or the animal it will always be there. Maybe were saying the same thing in a different way.
I dont fool with Sims anymore so i dont deal with the color trac but when i did it was easy to just see color and move on not have to open another window just preference.
Have no idea why all defects are not listed maybe not enough room on that line but im sure someone at the AAA knows.

 

[inyati13]

The P means somwhere in there pedigree there are potential untested carriers or known carriers and that animal is a potential carrier until tested C carrier or F free and until that test is done to clear the pedigree or the animal it will always be there. Maybe were saying the same thing in a different way.
I dont fool with Sims anymore so i dont deal with the color trac but when i did it was easy to just see color and move on not have to open another window just preference.
Have no idea why all defects are not listed maybe not enough room on that line but im sure someone at the AAA knows.

Sorry, bse. We are saying the same thing on the P.

In regard to the data, I have been pulling up SS bulls and only a few tests are shown. In fact, as few as one in some cases. I actually think Mr Myers is correct but I think it is hard to hold him accountable to an institution he does not represent. I hope to get a response from AAA and ASA.

 

[double v]

check out accelerated genetics they have removed many bulls looks like they are trying to keep all "clean bulls" doesn't look like the P or C is bulls are listed.

 

[boondocks]

I have found the AAA genetics staff to be very helpful when I've had questions. Usually I can get through to them right away.

My only issue with Select Sires has been that when a heifer didn't initially take on AI last year, they suggested (on the spot, when we needed to quickly re-AI on an observed heat, and the original sire wasn't in the tech's tank), that we go with Predestined. Heifer was ready and we had only a moment to decide, and we agreed. That night I looked him up and found the carrier status. So then we had to get the heifer tested, etc.

I have no problem with them continuing to offer carrier bulls, but maybe have customers sign something upfront that they know it's a carrier...I'm trying to stay on top of all this but the genetics companies have a responsibility too.
Just my :2cents:

 

[inyati13]

I have found the AAA genetics staff to be very helpful when I've had questions. Usually I can get through to them right away.

My only issue with Select Sires has been that when a heifer didn't initially take on AI last year, they suggested (on the spot, when we needed to quickly re-AI on an observed heat, and the original sire wasn't in the tech's tank), that we go with Predestined. Heifer was ready and we had only a moment to decide, and we agreed. That night I looked him up and found the carrier status. So then we had to get the heifer tested, etc.

I have no problem with them continuing to offer carrier bulls, but maybe have customers sign something upfront that they know it's a carrier...I'm trying to stay on top of all this but the genetics companies have a responsibility too.
Just my :2cents:

GAR Predestined AAA 13395344. Look at Predestined's CE and BW. 2 for CE and Plus 4 for BW. That is NOT a bull I would like used on a HEIFER. If you still have that heifer, I would be ready with assistance. That would bother me a 100 times more than the fact that he is DDC.

I have no problem with them using carriers as long as I know. REMEMBER, even if you mate a carrier to a non-carrier and eliminate the risk of having a calf that expresses the genetic defect, you still have a risk that the carrier gene will appear in the calf's genotype!!!!!

BTW: I am not in agreement that they should require the breeder to sign a wavier of any sort. As long as they are open and communicate well the status with regard to the genetic defects, it should be the breeder's duty to do the homework. As CP said, "Always, always, always do your homework."

 

[inyati13]

Following is the question I submitted to AAA. As I stated in the OP, I believe AAA administers this information better than ASA in my opinion. I am not charging anything is being done incorrectly. I think it is a matter of communication not intent.

When searching an animal, the genetic defect status appears on the Pedigree screen under the animal's registration number.

What rules determine what information is included in the brackets? Let me give an example that further illustrates my question. If an animal was tested for AM, DD, CA and NH and the test results show the animal is FREE of the conditions, would the information presented in the brackets be as follows [AMF - DDF - CAF - NHF] ?

The reason I ask is because some animals I have seen have been tested for all four conditions but only one test result is printed in the brackets. The Select Sire Bulls are tested for all known genetic conditions, but when viewing the pedigree screen, often the status of only two or three conditions is presented. Why not the others?

Conversely, I had a bull (17061926) that I tested for AM, CA and NH. The status of all three of those conditions appear in the brackets plus being DDP and D2P . Here is how it appears: [D2P -DDP - AMF - CAF - NHF]. Which is as it should be.

 

[inyati13]

I received a response from AAA and I apprciate their help.

AAA states that they post test results for defects tested. The results must be submitted to AAA for them to be listed. If tests are run that are not submitted, those tests will not appear in the brackets.

In regard to the "potential" carrier designation, that is based on screening the pedigree. Those animals whose pedigrees show a defect has the potential to be in the bloodline are listed as potential carries for that defect.

In reference to the statement that Select Sires tests for all known genetic defects here is their response:

The select sires animals you are talking about, if they only have a few posted under their number that means that Select Sires has not tested them for the other conditions and they are not potential carriers for them.

There is another possible explaination. Select Sires tested for the other defects and did not submit the data to AAA.

 

[inyati13]

The American Angus Association currently recognizes the following genetic conditions:
AM - Arthrogryposis Multiplex
D2 - PRKG2 Gene Mutation for Dwarfism
HG - Horn Gene
CA - Contractural Arachnodactyly
DM - Double Muscling
HI - Heterochromia Irides
DD - Developmental Duplication
DW - Dwarfism
OS - Osteopetrosis
M1 - nt821 mutation for Double Muscling
RD - Red Gene
SN - Syndactyly
NH - Neuropathic Hydrocephalus
WT - Wild Type Color Gene

However, currently there are only 6 genetic condition tests available. That is why you never see more than six test results in the brackets under the Registration Number. The six are AM, NH, CA, DD, M1 (double muscling) and D2 (dwarfism).

 

[inyati13]

As Boondock said, the AAA is very responsive to questions. I appreciate the information I have gotten from Becky Rhodus with AAA. AAA does a good job presenting the status of genetic defects if the information is submitted to them. The protocols of the administrative process are now more clear to me. After her explainations, what appears to be incomplete presentations are due to technical limitations, i.e., the status of genetic defects where there are no tests currently available is an example. Probably the greatest limitation of all is the lack of data in the lineage. That is where you can never be sure. You can screen a lineage and all you can say is, "based on the data available here are the findings". That is why I personally do not like the green button on the ASA pedigree. People see the green and think it means there is an all clear sign. That is why I am told ASA took down the color coded TraitTrac. Those animals in the lineage that are not tested or cleared based on ancestry cannot be assumed to be FREE of defects. AAA protocols are better than ASA in avoiding that error in my opinion.

Joe Myers of Select Sires was helpful. My field Rep Kenley Conner is super.

elkwc: I have no reason to involve myself with the AHA. I am involved with AAA because I use Angus semen on my PB Simmentals. Becky told me if you want AAA to screen a registered angus animal in their data base, you can send the Reg Number to them and they will do the screening for you. Which means they will go back four generations and look for any defects that have appeared in the animal's lineage. You can do that over the web without having to use the mail. Contact Becky Rhodus, [email protected]