High fiber feed vs high energy feed

[vclavin]

I prefer High fiber feed as it's cheaper but I am also able to utilize feeding hay with it. I also don't have to worry about founder from overeating. Another plus - I can feed it to every age on the farm. Bulls are raised on it so they don't fall apart when buyers turn them out to pasture - a few complained about the bulls they have bought from others in the past. I've had that happen to - nobody told me they had to be slowly changed to high fiber or their stomach bacteria couldn't use it properly.
This saves me a whole lot of headaches.

Formula we use:
2900 lbs corn gluten
2250 lbs cracked corn
750 lbs whole oats
2900 lbs soyhulls
200 lbs wet molasses - energy and dust control
100 lbs diamond yeast
100 lbs limestone
------
9200 lbs feed cost = $713.13 plus delivery of $82.50

What do you feed?

Blessings
Valerie Clavin

 

[1982vett]

I prefer High fiber feed as it's cheaper but I am also able to utilize feeding hay with it. I also don't have to worry about founder from overeating. Another plus - I can feed it to every age on the farm. Bulls are raised on it so they don't fall apart when buyers turn them out to pasture - a few complained about the bulls they have bought from others in the past. I've had that happen to - nobody told me they had to be slowly changed to high fiber or their stomach bacteria couldn't use it properly.
This saves me a whole lot of headaches.

Formula we use:
2900 lbs corn gluten
2250 lbs cracked corn
750 lbs whole oats
2900 lbs soyhulls
200 lbs wet molasses - energy and dust control
100 lbs diamond yeast
100 lbs limestone
------
9200 lbs feed cost = $713.13 plus delivery of $82.50

What do you feed?

Blessings
Valerie Clavin

My winter feeding program consists of winter pasture of oats, ryegrass, clover. This years establisment cost is about $54 per acre and hay which has a cost this year of about $60/ton.

Of course, the salt and minerals are always available. It is on the same level as water if you ask me.

 

[vclavin]

My winter feeding program consists of winter pasture of oats, ryegrass, clover. This years establisment cost is about $54 per acre and hay which has a cost this year of about $60/ton.

Of course, the salt and minerals are always available. It is on the same level as water if you ask me.

Is this for weaned calves? cows? We are paying $35 bale ( 1800 - 200lb bales at baling 5x6 , very heavy)

Same here as far as water, salt, mineral. Cows are in too good a condition after weaning to give grain. condition scores of 6,7, 8 and 2 9's . They are just gettin fescue have and some clover/foxtail hay to help with endophyte.

Weaned bulls - 10lbs each split into morning and evening. Heifers - 5 lbs day split also.
Breeding cows are getting 2lbs split to help with flushing.

Wish I had winter pastur like yours, someday hopefull. Been wanting to buy the land south of us but the old man won't sell. Likes his CRP and gas pipeline money too much - LOL Can't say as I blame him.

Blessings

Valerie Clavin

 

[1982vett]

Yes, weaned calves (which for me is developing replacement heifers), cows, and bulls. Heifers will get a couple pounds of range cubes (I have notice some call it cake) for several weeks after weaning to train them to lead anywhere you want to go with them (always looking for a handout after that.) After that it is whenever I feel generous or want to move them (sometimes they just don't think they want to move until they hear you rip open the bag.) Guess I need to mention the 18% all natural molasses tubs I use when forage quality hits the skids. Went thru a lot of them last year, not anywhere near as many this year. The cows have just about stopped using them over the past 3 months. Because the calves seem to like them I am reluctant to remove them. Really need to fix an area where the calves can get to them and keep the cows away.

Winter pastures has been the way to go around here for a long time. Climate and environment is what makes that possible here. How much longer that will last with the rising cost to get them established is something I really can't answer.

 

[TexasBred]

Mr. Clavin that's a pretty good ration witha good TDN and energy levels and certainly cost effective. Corn gluten feed it included a little higher than I'd recommend but apparently it's working. ;-) What do you feed it to and how much per head per day?? I notice it has a good supply of yeast in it which is great but often left out of most rations due to high cost. No more starches than this feed contains I wouldn't be worried too much about acidosis especially if you are also able to get an adequate amount of long stem fiber into the cattle. The prices you quote on hay look much more reasonable than the "roughage in a bag" you are feeding although soyhulls are an excellent product. I don't see any mention of vitamins and minerals so assume you are feeding them free choice "outside" the feed.

 

[vclavin]

Mr. Clavin that's a pretty good ration witha good TDN and energy levels and certainly cost effective. Corn gluten feed it included a little higher than I'd recommend but apparently it's working. ;-) What do you feed it to and how much per head per day?? I notice it has a good supply of yeast in it which is great but often left out of most rations due to high cost. No more starches than this feed contains I wouldn't be worried too much about acidosis especially if you are also able to get an adequate amount of long stem fiber into the cattle. The prices you quote on hay look much more reasonable than the "roughage in a bag" you are feeding although soyhulls are an excellent product. I don't see any mention of vitamins and minerals so assume you are feeding them free choice "outside" the feed.

TexasBred,
hehe it's Mrs Clavin, my husband Keith tells everyone to ask me if they want to know anything about the herd. He hates numbers and has decided that he's too old to learn EPD's - good thing I love DATA. I collect all I can.
A friend of ours feed 1/3 of each corn gluten, soyhulls, ground corn. He only feeds his weaned calves and says he has to be careful as they get fat too easy. I had the beef specialist run it thru his program to get a proper mix for the cattle. Minerals are thru Vitafirm. As I understand it, as long as we have the proper minerals our bodies can make the vitamins. I figure cows can too. No problems so far and have been using this mix for atound 5-6 years now.

Creep feeder - very small amount until calves find and start eating. (cupful?) Gradually add more as they finish it off until they are up to 5lbs if all heifers, 15lbs if all bulls/steers/ 10lbs if mix. Just have to watch them but so far they have done fine. Mix is approx 12% protein.
Breeding - 1-2 lbs per head daily split between morning and evening. Fescue hay and clover hay. If weather is extremely cold, beef specialist reccommended feeding it to the other cows as well. I have given them lick tubs but only all natural as the urea in some of them would - as I was told - interfere with digestion of this feed and hay.

Blessings
Valerie Clavin

 

[TexasBred]

Sorry about that "Mrs" Clavin. Guess I just figured you for another of the "old coots". My apologies for not knowing you were a lady. Welcome also.....sounds like you're doing good with the feed so I wouldn't change anything.....I do hate to see folks feed 15-16% crude fiber especially when they have good inexpensive fiber available from hay and/or grazing. As for vitamins, cattle will "manufacture vitamin D" from sunglight but other vitamins have to be supplemented. Some minerals are also naturally occuring in feedstuffs, but sometimes also need supplementation. Double check that "Vitaferm" mix and see if it doesn't also contain a substantial amount of vitamins. By the way, Vitaferm makes good products.
As for the tubs, they really should be necessary but that's up to you. I too would stick with the natural protein "by choice". Best Wishes.

 

[vclavin]

TexasBred,
Maybe you can help me with a question. How much difference would there be in the marbling scores, fat, etc, if I were to feed the high energy instead?

There are 3 animals I am curious about.
#15816019 DOB 1-27-07
weaning 644
yearling 817
Ultrasound: actual in quotes 433 days
weight 863 (910)
IMF 8.26 (8.53)
RE 9.5 (9.9)
Rib fat .30 (.32)
Rump Fat .37 (.39)
-------
Ultrasound again at 650 days (no adj made, just raw data)
weight 1044
IMF 9.01
RE 12.00
RIb Fat .24
Rump Fat .25

===================
#15816020
weaning 668
yearling 1071
Ultrasound - actual in quotes 414 days
weight 987 (1080)
IMF 7.65 (7.84)
RE 10.8 (11.4)
RIb Fat .14 (.20)
RUmp Fat .24 (.27)
------
Ultrasound again at 631 days raw data only (taken after breeding cows)
weight 1574
IMF 8.01
RE 14.3
Rib fat .27
Rump Fat .30
========================
#15816021
weaning 641
yearling 1059
Ultrasound - actual in quotes 380 days
weight 998 (1006)
IMF 5.69 (5.75)
RE 12.6 (12.7)
Rib FAt .36 (.36)
Rump Fat .37 (.37)
---------------
Ultrasound again at 582 days raw data only
weight 1598
IMF 5.55
RE 17.10
Rib Fat .35
Rump Fat .36
===================
Would you assume marbling would be greater but also the rib fat & rump fat if feed high energy feed? Even though the fat cover is very little, they does not seem to notice the cold.
Thanks for your input.
Valerie Clavin

 

[TexasBred]

True those 3 have very little Sub Q fat but sub Q fat deposition is more of a maturity thing than feeding etc. and totally independent of marbling.

For Marbling Remember:

Marbling development is a component of growth
Subcutaneous fat deposition is not
Compensatory growth may be antagonistic to marbling
High growth cattle need more fuel

That is better obtained with a higher energy diet.

 

[vclavin]

True those 3 have very little Sub Q fat but sub Q fat deposition is more of a maturity thing than feeding etc. and totally independent of marbling.

For Marbling Remember:

Marbling development is a component of growth
Subcutaneous fat deposition is not
Compensatory growth may be antagonistic to marbling
High growth cattle need more fuel

That is better obtained with a higher energy diet.

TexasBred,

Please explain more fully: "Compensatory growth may be antagonistic to marbling"

Thanks
Blessings
Valerie Clavin

 

[Tod Dague]

High fiber does not mean low energy. I figure your feed is about 70% TDN on an as fed basis, it's not straight corn but is pretty good as far as energy goes. If you were to switch out some of your feed with more corn but kept the TDN and protein the same I doubt you see much difference in your marbling or back fat. Personally I think your getting them fat enough. I've seen some bull sales where the bulls had a 1/2" of fat, those suckers are ready for the kill floor.

Frankie had a post a while back that stated that feeding more starches to calves at an early age would increase the marbling scores better than fiber feeds of the same energy, I think it was the way their digestive systems were able to utilize the available energy (not sure about that last part, it's been a while and I've slept since then). Maybe she'll bring it up again.

 

[vclavin]

High fiber does not mean low energy. I figure your feed is about 70% TDN on an as fed basis, it's not straight corn but is pretty good as far as energy goes. If you were to switch out some of your feed with more corn but kept the TDN and protein the same I doubt you see much difference in your marbling or back fat. Personally I think your getting them fat enough. I've seen some bull sales where the bulls had a 1/2" of fat, those suckers are ready for the kill floor.

Frankie had a post a while back that stated that feeding more starches to calves at an early age would increase the marbling scores better than fiber feeds of the same energy, I think it was the way their digestive systems were able to utilize the available energy (not sure about that last part, it's been a while and I've slept since then). Maybe she'll bring it up again.

I had read that somewhere about corn gluten as young calves. Also read Vitamin A reduces marbling.
Thanks for the input, I have always wondered tahe difference. I don't like those fat bulls either - been there and done that. Drop weight in the pasture like a lead balloon - :lol:

Thanks
Blessings
Valerie Clavin