Heterosis some more.

[Txwalt]

Just putting this up to see if I understand it correctly. Usually I see heterosis discussed using epd's and frame for example. But heterosis would also be the reason that brangus cows are around. Using the advantages of the brahman and adding the advatages of the angus. Or vice versa. Seems some folks cross longhorns and herfords with another breed to utilize the hardiness of the longhorn and hereford breed. Once your herd is conditioned the way you want it seems like the terminal cross would come into play. Using what I've read from this forum. If I ranched for my only source of income, I would have my ranch split into 2 types. Terminal cross and replacements. All terminal cross calves would go to sale. My replacement herds would all look relativley the same and be there to keep herd numbers relative. Is this stupid? If so why? It appears to me that most herds are extremley mixed. I've also noticed that people on this board will keep a cross from their best heifer or their better heifers but this does not make sense to me. It seems like a baseline herd is recommended. If your herd is made up of different types of cows with different potential then you can't maximize by using an appropriate bull.
I'm trying to keep everything else in mind; forage ability, disease and pest resistance, frame size, calving ability, epd's.

Walt

 

[dun]

The problem with breeds like Brangus or Gerts or others that are a true breeding composit is that you end up losing heterosis when they are bred to the same composit. Something about recombining genes. We retain heifers that are crosses from some of our better cows. But we breed primarily as a 2 breed rotation and some we strait breed. Once in a while we'll toss in a little something else, Simmenthal, just to see if that will increase the bottomline without hurting the breeding program.
We use the Simmenthals generally as a termnal cross, but we also have Polled Hereford and Red Angus bulls that we use as terminals also.
We're down to one cow and 3 of her daughters that is part Gelbvieh. If I could find a red Gelbvieh bull that brought the same things to the table that Simmenthals do we would have a few more.

 

[Beefy]

well ideally i would like to take my best beefmaster cows and breed them to beefmaster BULLS! for replacements and take the rest of the cows and breed them to angus or hereford bulls to get uniformity. charolais would make uniform and heavier calves too but i like angus and hereford better you see.

but it takes a lot of time and money to grow a replacement heifer.it probably makes better business sense to buy your replacements as you need them. with raising your own, of course, you know more about the history of the cow.

then you can focus on breeding all of your cows to terminal bulls if you so choose. personally, i like to keep all traits in moderation. but i retain a lot of heifers.

 

[dun]

well ideally i would like to take my best beefmaster cows and breed them to beefmaster cows

Breeding cows to cows would sure simplify management

 

[Beefy]

upon reading your post again, dont get breed complimentarity and heterosis confused. they are not the same.

this comes from the North American Limousin Foundation:

Why Crossbreed?
Crossbreeding beef cattle offers two primary advantages relative to the use of only one breed: 1) crossbred animals exhibit heterosis (hybrid vigor), and 2) crossbred animals combine the strengths of the various breeds used to form the cross. The goal of a well-designed, systematic crossbreeding program is to optimize these advantages of heterosis and breed complementarity simultaneously.

 

[Beefy]

well ideally i would like to take my best beefmaster cows and breed them to beefmaster cows

Breeding cows to cows would sure simplify management

a bunch of open cows = zero calving difficulty, thats for sure! :idea:

 

[dun]

well ideally i would like to take my best beefmaster cows and breed them to beefmaster cows

Breeding cows to cows would sure simplify management

a bunch of open cows = zero calving difficulty, thats for sure! :idea:

I figured you just wuldn;'t have the problems of keeping bulls around. Sure would raise hob with the bottom linee though

 

[Beefy]

It appears to me that most herds are extremley mixed.

Walt

these herds probably have angus or charolais bulls running with them. it doesnt matter what the cows look like as long as the calves appear uniform. this is one reason black angus is so popular. black angus bulls make a uniform-looking calf crop. charolais make light colored calves. herefords throw white faces. etc.

 

[Beefy]

well ideally i would like to take my best beefmaster cows and breed them to beefmaster cows

Breeding cows to cows would sure simplify management

a bunch of open cows = zero calving difficulty, thats for sure! :idea:

I figured you just wuldn;'t have the problems of keeping bulls around. Sure would raise hob with the bottom linee though

cuts down on feed costs too.

 

[dun]

well ideally i would like to take my best beefmaster cows and breed them to beefmaster cows

Breeding cows to cows would sure simplify management

a bunch of open cows = zero calving difficulty, thats for sure! :idea:

I figured you just wuldn;'t have the problems of keeping bulls around. Sure would raise hob with the bottom linee though

cuts down on feed costs too.

Yup. You wouldn;t have those accursed claves eating grass that those open cows could use

 

[Beefy]

thats the truth! they could lounge around eating all day instead of whipping up milkshakes.

 

[dun]

thats the truth! they could lounge around eating all day instead of whipping up milkshakes.

Do you think this has been "milked" enough?

 

[Aero]

But heterosis would also be the reason that brangus cows are around. Using the advantages of the brahman and adding the advatages of the angus.

heterosis is not at all the reason the Brangus was created. more than likely, the 2 breeds were originally crossed because of complementarity. each breed has strong and weak points. joining these 2 different animals would ideally produce offspring with less pronounced weaknesses (and strengths). heterosis is just a byproduct of the breeding and as time goes on the heterosis will wain and the complementary breeding will remain the same.

heterosis is not a goal in creating a new breed.

 

[Aero]

It appears to me that most herds are extremley mixed.

Walt

these herds probably have angus or charolais bulls running with them. ...

this is one cause. what you will see in most herds is that the owner doesnt really have a plan or goal that requires a set course of action. he buys whatever bull breed is hot that year and has a different breed every year.

i always like looking at the young heifers in a herd and then comparing them to the other cows from previous years. look at a 2 year old and then look at the 12 year old he forgot about. usually you will see a rainbow in between.

 

[VanC]

Using what I've read from this forum. If I ranched for my only source of income, I would have my ranch split into 2 types. Terminal cross and replacements. All terminal cross calves would go to sale. My replacement herds would all look relativley the same and be there to keep herd numbers relative. Is this stupid?

Walt

No, it's not stupid at all. In fact it's a good idea, IMO, but comes with certain drawbacks. Unless you used AI, you would need 2 breeding pastures and 2 bulls. If you were going to put a terminal bull on F1 cows, and you wanted to raise ALL your replacements, you would need 3 pastures and 3 bulls. Plus you would have a certain number of steers sired by maternal bulls which, if you were trying to keep moderate framed cows, would not grow as fast as your terminal sired calves. Plus you need the numbers, which in turn requires the land, to make it work. In a relatively small herd of, say, less than 50 it usually just ain't worth it. Anyway, here's a site that explains it a lot better than I can:

http://www.heterosis.com/DesktopModules ... 33&mid=300

 

[andybob]

With so many herds too small to run a rotational or two breed herd, it would make sense to network, one breeder has a good adapted breed for the area, produces the F1 females to sell to the third parties, who produce a terminal cross suitable for the market in their area. By sourcing from the same known herd you can afford to pay a premium for a consistant quality F1 heifer with a known breeding and health history, and the premium makes it worth the extra effort for the damline breeder, especially if the F1 steers are not the best type for the local market.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

But heterosis would also be the reason that brangus cows are around. Using the advantages of the brahman and adding the advatages of the angus.

• heterosis is not at all the reason the Brangus was created.

more than likely, the 2 breeds were originally crossed because of complementarity. each breed has strong and weak points. joining these 2 different animals would ideally produce offspring with less pronounced weaknesses (and strengths). heterosis is just a byproduct of the breeding and as time goes on the heterosis will wain and the complementary breeding will remain the same.

heterosis is not a goal in creating a new breed.

that's right.. if it was the heterosis they were after they would stick to the F1's then use another breed of bull of their choice to maximize. breeds like brangus were bred to endure southern heat and insects . but only 3/8 brahamn and 5/8 angus to get the best traits from the brahamn influance. but kept it to a minimum. you can take a brangus and breed in one direction for a single trait and lose most all heterosis sorta like breeding F2'S & F3's and so on. it starts to decline

 

[Txwalt]

With so many herds too small to run a rotational or two breed herd, it would make sense to network, one breeder has a good adapted breed for the area, produces the F1 females to sell to the third parties, who produce a terminal cross suitable for the market in their area.

I agree completley and was thinking of doing this myself. On another note I now understand the difference between complamentarity and heterosis. Thanks for the posts.

Walt