Heresy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RichieMaGoo]

I've only been messing with bovines for a year- but I don't use drugs/vaccines for them, nor for any other animals (dogs, etc.) that I've had all my life- nor do I believe in vaccines for humans- and all I can say is that my animals and myself are healthier than anyone! (I haven't been to a doctor since 1978).

Believe me, you stay away from the vaccines, and your animals will be healthier than your neighbors.

 

[milkmaid]

Believe me, you stay away from the vaccines, and your animals will be healthier than your neighbors.

I wouldn't dare take a chance on a PI calf by deliberately not vaccinating for BVD. Bottle calves I've gotten away with not vaccinating or worming, but on a mature animal? Wouldn't do it. I'm firmly convinced the reason one of my nurse cows - open 18 months! - bred back was because I vaccinated her per label instructions, all by the book, and she bred first service after vaccinating.

And what about all the other problems that you can run into - IBR, blackleg, brucellosis, etc, etc, etc - I for one think a vaccine is pretty doggone cheap protection. For that matter - the brucellosis vaccine is required by law on heifers in most states.

And as to other drugs - I have quite a few animals on my place that wouldn't have survived if I hadn't used antibiotics on them. LA200, Baytril, Nuflor, Spectam, sulfas, etc, etc. Another bit of cheap animal care.

Can't say as I agree with you, Richie.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Milkmaid - you're talking to a wall. Some people just don't believe in meds - period.
I'm with you.

 

[stocky]

40 dollars per cow sounds like a fortune for my area. I use a generic pour on for parasites, costs 80 cents per cow 2 times per year. I clamp my bull calves, use 7 way blackleg with pinkeye at 80 cents per calf, I keep scour tablets and micatil at 1.00 per cc and baytril available (large bottles are cheaper), depending on age of animal and the generic la200 for footrot or other general problems, it is 28 dollars for a 500 cc bottle. Last year I had 2 vet calls for calves turned wrong and 1 for a prolapse that I wasnt home to take care of. I run just over 300 mama cows. If my total medicine and vet bill ran 10 dollars per cow average, I would think it was way too high. Mine is just a commercial herd and I also buy cows to winter and sell as pairs, so my operation isnt typical

 

[norriscathy]

40 dollars per cow sounds like a fortune for my area. I use a generic pour on for parasites, costs 80 cents per cow 2 times per year. I clamp my bull calves, use 7 way blackleg with pinkeye at 80 cents per calf, I keep scour tablets and micatil at 1.00 per cc and baytril available (large bottles are cheaper), depending on age of animal and the generic la200 for footrot or other general problems, it is 28 dollars for a 500 cc bottle. Last year I had 2 vet calls for calves turned wrong and 1 for a prolapse that I wasnt home to take care of. I run just over 300 mama cows. If my total medicine and vet bill ran 10 dollars per cow average, I would think it was way too high. Mine is just a commercial herd and I also buy cows to winter and sell as pairs, so my operation isnt typical

No lepto, BVD sommus, or scour guard? Pour on doesn't seem to work well for us.

 

[RichieMaGoo]

Believe me, you stay away from the vaccines, and your animals will be healthier than your neighbors.

I wouldn't dare take a chance on a PI calf by deliberately not vaccinating for BVD. Bottle calves I've gotten away with not vaccinating or worming, but on a mature animal? Wouldn't do it. I'm firmly convinced the reason one of my nurse cows - open 18 months! - bred back was because I vaccinated her per label instructions, all by the book, and she bred first service after vaccinating.

And what about all the other problems that you can run into - IBR, blackleg, brucellosis, etc, etc, etc - I for one think a vaccine is pretty doggone cheap protection. For that matter - the brucellosis vaccine is required by law on heifers in most states.

And as to other drugs - I have quite a few animals on my place that wouldn't have survived if I hadn't used antibiotics on them. LA200, Baytril, Nuflor, Spectam, sulfas, etc, etc. Another bit of cheap animal care.

Can't say as I agree with you, Richie.

Sorry...but I believe vaccines are a hoax- a cruel one. Not only is there no proof of them doing any good, there is proof of them doing harm.

All of my close neighbors who all vaccinate for blackleg, have recently had cows die from blackleg. I don't vaccinate, and my cows are fine.

I don't vaccinate by bottle calves, and i have the lowest death rate of anyone I know.

In Japan, they stopped vaccinating babies (human), and SIDs (Sudden Infant Death syndrome) virtually disdappeared there- while here, not only is SIDS still going strong, but the majority of babies who die from it, do so with 48 hours of receiving a vaccination.

Or how about the public schools in my area: All the kids are vaccinated for 100 different things- and each year, they have to close the schools down for several weeks, because of epidemics. The Amish, on the other hand, who don't avaccinate, never have such a problem.

All I'm saying is that people should be aware of the facts, and look into these things- there's plenty of info out there on the web. Why usse products and pay good money for them, thinking they're doing you good, when in fact they're causing harm?

Heck, if I buy older calves, i'll ask if they've been vaccinated- and if the farmer says "yes", I won't buy 'em.

 

[MikeC]

Sorry...but I believe vaccines are a hoax- a cruel one. Not only is there no proof of them doing any good, there is proof of them doing harm.

Could you provide some proof of vaccines doing more harm than good?

 

[Bez!]

Sorry...but I believe vaccines are a hoax- a cruel one. Not only is there no proof of them doing any good, there is proof of them doing harm.

Provide please - in 100 words or less - fact not opinion.

All of my close neighbors who all vaccinate for blackleg, have recently had cows die from blackleg. I don't vaccinate, and my cows are fine.

A bold statement - until you provide proof I am throwing the BS flag at you.

I wonder if ALL of your neighbours really did vaccinate - or if they did, was it done correctly or are you simply spreading BS - bet your neighbours love you.

Or in fact has this "epidemic" been fabricated?

I don't vaccinate by bottle calves, and i have the lowest death rate of anyone I know.

Vaccinating babies - never did it myself - they have natural immunities - or perhaps you have been lucky? Suspect some of both. I believe it is a waste of money to vaccinate anything under 3-4 months - but that is simply my opinion.

However you sit on a very high chair from your scribings. Another statement of your apparent arrogance and lofty ideal with no proof provided.

In Japan, they stopped vaccinating babies (human), and SIDs (Sudden Infant Death syndrome) virtually disdappeared there- while here, not only is SIDS still going strong, but the majority of babies who die from it, do so with 48 hours of receiving a vaccination.

Might be right - I do not know. In fact I have witnessed some pretty bad stuff that were only stopped by vaccinating. I have also had the delighful (tongue in cheek) opportunity to experience cholera and diptheria in some third world countries.

Seems to me polio is pretty well a done deal as well.

I know vaccinations work. They sure kept me alive.

All I'm saying is that people should be aware of the facts, and look into these things- there's plenty of info out there on the web. Why usse products and pay good money for them, thinking they're doing you good, when in fact they're causing harm?

Wrongful use of anything can cause harm - you appear to believe the correct use is harmful. Mickey D provides fast food - now being sued by idiots who got fat. So perhaps you might tell us how these drugs have caused harm?

Facts please - 100 words or less.

Heck, if I buy older calves, i'll ask if they've been vaccinated- and if the farmer says "yes", I won't buy 'em

One calf vaccinated for blackleg and one calf not vaccinated for blackleg. Both exposed. Which one stands a better chance of getting sick? Honestly.

Finally - again:

Sorry...but I believe vaccines are a hoax- a cruel one. Not only is there no proof of them doing any good, there is proof of them doing harm.

You believe? Glad you do not live beside me and I sure would not want your cattle near mine. Proof please or yet another BS flag.

Do not come back to me with opinion and do not refer me to web sites - you have made your statements - I do not believe it is appropriate for me to do your research.

Proof please of all of your above statements. Thank you.

Bez!

 

[WORANCH]

All of my close neighbors who all vaccinate for blackleg, have recently had cows die from blackleg. I don't vaccinate, and my cows are fine.

.

You have seen COWS die from blackleg?

 

[milkmaid]

Couple of quotes:

Hello, Everyone!

I've been rasing Holstein bottle calves for a year now- but yesterday, I bought my first beef-breed heifer from a neighbor.

I make more money off of bottle calves than my neighbors make the regular way. The trick is to keep the death rate low. Out of 26 I've raised so far, I've only lost one. I raise them in hutches with large outdoor runs- use a good quality milk replacer (with at least 22% protien and 22% fat)- give them access to hay and water from day one- no vaccinations or meds- and, probably the most important thing: I buy mine off the farm- not from sale barns/auctions.

And lastly - Richie, a picture you posted -

What are these calves? 4 months? five? six?

And what about that beef heifer? I haven't been able to find for certain if brucellosis is a required -by law- vaccine in Kentucky, but assuming it is, you going to have that calf vaccinated or not???

 

[buckaroo_bif]

:shock: more money with bottle calves magoo?

 

[milkmaid]

Out of 26 I've raised so far, I've only lost one.

I don't vaccinate by bottle calves, and i have the lowest death rate of anyone I know.

Not anymore. I have a lower death rate among my bottle calves than you do.

The Amish, on the other hand, who don't avaccinate, never have such a problem.

Relative of mine who has degrees in epidemiology, biology, and public health says you're wrong. They frequently have outbreaks of whooping cough and polio.

 

[milkmaid]

:shock: more money with bottle calves magoo?

Not sure about "more", as I don't know how much beef folks average, but I am sure you'd be surprised how much you can make on bottle calves. ;-)

 

[buckaroo_bif]

Maybe you get a better price on Milk saver than I do.

 

[CattleAnnie]

Holy Crow!!!

I'm coming late onto this discussion, but Richie's neighbour had Blackleg in his herd and Richie thinks he doesn't need to vaccinate his cattle for it?!?!

Unreal. And unfair to those animals, as they are the ones that will die in agony if they contract it.

Richie, there's a fellow who runs cattle in our community pasture that used to think the same way you did (and there hadn't been a case of Blackleg recorded in this area).

He turned his cattle out without vaccinating and in mid-July of 1998 an outbreak occurred (predominantly in his cattle, but other producers who did vaccinate also lost some stock, but nowhere near the percentage as he).

Out of two hundred pairs and he lost 86 calves.

That was a very expensive lesson on the cost of vaccines as opposed to loss of stock (he would have lost more if not for the untiring efforts of the pasture members rounding up 500 pairs out of the grueling river breaks and rugged foothills pasture in thirty above Celcius heat and vaccinating them all).

Just some food for thought.


Take care and for goodness sake, vaccinate!

 

[RichieMaGoo]

Holy Crow!!!

I'm coming late onto this discussion, but Richie's neighbour had Blackleg in his herd and Richie thinks he doesn't need to vaccinate his cattle for it?!?!

Unreal. And unfair to those animals, as they are the ones that will die in agony if they contract it.

But you're missing the point: My neighbors WHO VACCINATED for blackleg, had blackleg deaths. I did not. What does this tell you? A) The Vaccine apparently does not prevent blackleg. B)It may well cause it, because my neighbors who had the blackleg, all got it(vaccinating at different times) within weeks of vaccinating.

Even if the vaccinations did not cause their blackleg, it certainly didn't prevent it- so what possible reason would I have for injecting my animals with this garbage?

Relative of mine who has degrees in epidemiology, biology, and public health says you're wrong. They frequently have outbreaks of whooping cough and polio.

No offense...but look around you- we have these people with the letters after their names guiding our whole society- and what are the fruits of these "experts" advice? Mad Cow Disease, Avian Flu and a host of other diseases which we've never before seen the likes of- and a populace that is so sickly that the vast majority of people today feel that they can not live without being tethered to insurance companies and pharmacies. Today, one of every two people will contract cancer at some point in their life. Our own CDC admits that people who have received 5 vaccinations within a 10 year period are TEN tIMES more likely to develope Alzheimers Disease......

I stopped listening to the people with letters after their name many years ago- but hey...if if it works for you....

 

[preston39]

Richie...,

It does seem at times that our scientific community lets us down. At the same time we must acknowledge their contributions. It's helpful in understanding the total program if we keep it in perspective.

You are aware of many(poliomyelitis,tetanus, diphtheria and others) are under control in humans because of the scientific achievements in immunology...shots). So is the case in animals. Many of the diseases in our herds are controlled because of the preventive immunizations.

I am not aware of any shot that will cause the animal to come down with the intended disease the shot is designed to prevent. If so, then most likely the animal had previous recent exposure that had not incubated for the time necessary for it to appear ,and its' sudden onset was purely coincidental with the shot. However it may be that an animal with recent exposure may become more susceptible to a disease activation when given a shot and active exposure...because some the shots carry controlled live bugs to build up the animals immunity for that disease.

Herd health is something that is difficult for some to see the advantages of protecting until that dreadful day arrives when animals are ill or dying in numbers. Most of the time it is to late and becomes costly.

A good preventive herd health program discussed and coordinated with a vet has a tremendous payback and is needed.

Talk to a vet and give it some thought.

 

[RichieMaGoo]

Relative of mine who has degrees in epidemiology, biology, and public health says you're wrong. They frequently have outbreaks of whooping cough and polio.

Miilkmaid,

Please ask your relative exactly when the last "outbreak" of whooping cough or polio occurred among the Amsih. I think you will be surprised at the answer- as well as the disengenuousness of the person who gave you the information. (Might be better to look the info up yourself on the net- as the person who gave you this info probably won't even know)

 

[Chuck]

Sorry to tell you Richie, I know of an Amish colony that had several cases of polio this year.

 

[MikeC]

Sorry to tell you Richie, I know of an Amish colony that had several cases of polio this year.

There are all sorts of "Whooping cough" cases in Amish communities also. All you have to do is Google them.

Rubella.................all sorts of diseases

Average Life expectancy has been in decline from those "killer" vaccinations for how long now?