Help with epds

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Lazy M

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These are the epd graph for a 2 yr old Angus bull that I'm considering. Didn't get any pics but he had a very nice phenotype. Looking at the graph what are your thoughts/concerns? He'd be used on an Angus based commercial herd.
 

Son of Butch

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Short, but wide cattle producing increased carcass weights/meat and fat while keeping frame under control (below breed average frame) yet efficient in the feedlot. A little bit surprised $EN are so low given mh and mw are under control. He should work best on cows considered too tall and narrow that need to be easier fleshing (fatter)
 
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Lazy M

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Also here's another one that they had available. Also a good phenotype and cheaper. He doesn't have as much growth but may be more moderate in other measurables. Which do you prefer?
 

Son of Butch

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I prefer the 1st bull, but if keeping replacements wish his cem and $EN were higher.
I'm assuming both epds are very low accuracy and therefore would go with the bull I liked best in
person. Either bull seem to be acceptable for a commercial herd.
 

Ebenezer

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First bull is high milk and the second bull will have daughters with lower milk. That is the driver on $E. The daughters of the first bull will need more groceries. There was an article in Progressive Cattleman a few months ago with research that said that even if your feed and forage are not able to let a cow express her full potential of milk production that the cows with the higher MM EPDs will be harder doing. The article said it in a better way but the take home for me was to know the MM EPD that you can support and stay close.
 
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Lazy M

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Ebenezer said:
First bull is high milk and the second bull will have daughters with lower milk. That is the driver on $E. The daughters of the first bull will need more groceries. There was an article in Progressive Cattleman a few months ago with research that said that even if your feed and forage are not able to let a cow express her full potential of milk production that the cows with the higher MM EPDs will be harder doing. The article said it in a better way but the take home for me was to know the MM EPD that you can support and stay close.

I'm assuming that the low HP correlates to the poor $E and high MM for the first bull?
 

Ebenezer

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HP is based on heifers breeding and not lactating cows breeding. So for the most part: no.

There could be a correlation of slow breeding heifers due to increased organ sizes needed to support more milk production when they are in lactation but that has not been proven as far as I know. HP is merely virgin heifers breeding or not breeding. It could be due to genetics that are low fertility, slower maturity pattern, more genetic growth to negate energy to reproduction, lack of environmental fit (such as able to handle the heat), ...
 
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Lazy M

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Ebenezer said:
HP is based on heifers breeding and not lactating cows breeding. So for the most part: no.

There could be a correlation of slow breeding heifers due to increased organ sizes needed to support more milk production when they are in lactation but that has not been proven as far as I know. HP is merely virgin heifers breeding or not breeding. It could be due to genetics that are low fertility, slower maturity pattern, more genetic growth to negate energy to reproduction, lack of environmental fit (such as able to handle the heat), ...
Learned something, thanks!
Going strictly by the numbers, should the first bull be considered terminal? Would the second bull be better theoretically if heifers are retained?
 

Son of Butch

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In theory the 2nd bull would be better for retaining heifers mostly based on cem.
I would not put too much weight on any unproven bull's milk epd.
1st the accuracy is still very low... probably around .39 or less
2nd Milk heritability is the lowest of all epd traits at only .12 (even on the best of proven bulls)
meaning 88% of milk production is influenced by environment.
(Mature height has the highest heritability .62)

The 2nd bull may well give you the most bang for your buck.
As I said before, I'd strongly encourage the final selection be based on visual appraisal of the bulls and their dams, rather than based on low accuracy epds which are subject to a wide range of probable change before the truth is known.
 

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