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WalnutCrest

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A friend of mine and I (both of us are grass-only types) are having a discussion/disagreement about the things that one would be able to observe (if any) about two particular cows (both of whom are open for legitimate reasons unrelated to their fertility) that might give an indication that one is genetically predisposed to graze more in bad / hot weather ... the discussion goes something like this ...

Person 1: I think a cow that is routinely grazing in the middle of the day when other cows are hiding in the shade is genetically predisposed to being a 'persistent grazier', and this trait is desirable and heritable. I want more daughters out of this 'persistent grazing' cow than the others in my herd.

Person 2: While it's great that this particular cow is grazing when others are not, there are several potential explanations. It may or may not be genetics. It may be because one cow has a calf on her and another one doesn't. It may be because one is already at a higher condition than another. It might be because one is a bigger framed cow, and therefore needs more groceries to maintain condition.

Person 1: Well, if one is at a better condition (all else being the same), isn't that what you want? Wouldn't you link the two --- eating more and being in better condition?

Person 2: Yes, I would. However, I would expect one wet cow to have a lower condition than a dry cow (assuming similar frame scores). So, that may not have been the best example. If they're roughly the same BCS and roughly the same frame size and roughly the same age, then yes, I'd want more cows like the one that is out grazing. However, that's not the totality of the situation you're talking about. One of the cows in question has a calf on her and the other one doesn't. Which one of your 'persistent grazing' cows is the one nursing a calf?

Person 1: Well, yes, assuming the two cows have roughly the same BCS and are roughly the same frame size ... and the only difference is that one is nursing a calf and one is not ... I'll put it back to you, which cow (the dry one or the nursing one) should be the one grazing in the middle of the day?

Person 2: If the one that is nursing is the one grazing, that tells you that she needs to graze the additional time in order to maintain condition comparable to the non-nursing cow, and so, she's simply out doing her job (feeding her calf while not going too far downhill in her own condition) ... and if the one that is doing the extra grazing is not nursing a calf, then that tells you she is far less efficient at converting her groceries to something of value (milk or meat) and needs to eat more simply to maintain condition. Do you agree with that?

Person 1: I think so... I do believe that most cattle have a drive towards self-preservation (some are whimps and want to die; thank goodness neither of us own any of those). Regardless of the reason (and even if it's a tad unreasonable), I still want cattle that will go graze when it's hot and the others are hanging back in the shade, and so, I'll do what I reasonably can to perpetuate those genetics in my herd; I think those cattle are more genetically predisposed to be a 'persistent graziers'. I don't know that I should care about the 'why' of it. I like the trait and I want more of it. Is this being unreasonable? Am I missing something in assessing my cattle?

Person 2: All else being equal (i.e., among true contemporaries --- age, class, size, etc.), I'd pick the one grazing more too. Unfortunately, you're not dealing with apples and apples. Sorry, I can't tell you which of these two cows has better 'grazing genetics'.

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So, what do you guys think?

Is the cow (open and w/o a calf) that is out grazing away in the middle of the hot, sunny afternoon more genetically predisposed to being a 'persistent grazier' than the cow (open, but nursing a calf) who is hanging back in the shade -- assuming similar age, size and condition?

Assuming similar ages, sizes and condition, is this enough information to guess if one is more efficient at converting food to something of value?

Which one would you want more of (again, assume both are open for a specific reason unrelated to genetics ... like, the guy who owns the cattle is going from spring calving to fall, or something similar to that)?
 
Just being honest, I think you are overanalyzing.

I just want the cow to raise a big heavy calf and not get rail thin while doing it or cause me a vet bill. Its that simple. How she wants to handle her grazing schedule is her business.

We are a lot hotter and more humid where I am compared to KS. I have all different types of cattle. The brahman and brahman crosses tend to stay out more in the sunny part of the day. The British cattle tend to lounge in the pond. Not a hard and fast rule, but my observations.

Winter time habits are going to also vary since the Brahman will shiver and require more nutrition in the cold than the other types. So you have to factor in the other times of the year as well.
 
LauraleesFarm":3to405d0 said:
Just being honest, I think you are overanalyzing.

I just want the cow to raise a big heavy calf and not get rail thin while doing it or cause me a vet bill. Its that simple. How she wants to handle her grazing schedule is her business.

I agree. Judge them off the calf they produce, not off how they look.
 
I can drive my truck from here to the Red River and burn 24 gallons of gasoline. I can drive my wife's Dodge Dart the same route, get there in the same amount of time, and burn less than 7 gallons of gasoline.
Which vehicle is costing me more?
I figure if a cow (wet or dry) can produce well while lounging around in the shade 1/2 the day, she's a keeper. The one that HAS to eat 24/7 to do the same thing as the shade tree/pond queen is costing me a lot more than the other one.
 
I think y'all had too much beer....:). If a cow is grazing she ain't full. Nothing better than one chewing her cud...
 
Kingfisher":1h9dhbsy said:
I think y'all had too much beer....:). If a cow is grazing she ain't full. Nothing better than one chewing her cud...
A full tank of fuel has no value unless you have the engine running. Chew that cud sweety. ;-)
 
Well....obviously neither are black angus as neither are in the tank "swimming"..... :hide: :lol:
 
An open cow without a calf would not be out in my field grazing or laying in the shade either and I don't care what her genetics are or why she doesn't have a calf.
 
I'd say you both know cattle. But not sure of a conclusion..

Consider...
The actual chewing portion of a cow's day consumes eight hours and ruminating takes about 12 hours. Cows can take around 890 bites per minute, 8 hours a day for about 130 pounds of food if conditions are optimal.

http://forages.oregonstate.edu/nfgc/eo/ ... /livestock

Considering that, I'd say if a cow is out eating in the heat of the day, she is more heat tolerant. That said, I don't know anything about cows.
 
I think if you had a bunch of cows that are eating all the time you will run out of grass. Cow that can't eat enough in a few hours to go the shade and chew her cud is on short pasture or feed pit.
 

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