Help PLEASE!!!!!!!

[Wisteria Farms]

Hi everyone... I really need some "expert" advice... Here's why:
I have a friend who has recently lost a 5 year old cow AND her calf. The stumper is that the calf was 8 months old and weaned off the cow for approx. 2 months.
He brought these cattle in from another herd... they've been on his place (I'm guessing) a year. I don't think there was any cattle there prior to these.

This cow apparently looked good going into spring and for most of the summer... he said she had gradually started losing weight and then died. The calf then got sick and died as well (I don't think the deaths were too far apart). Is there anything the cow might have passed on to the calf through the milk? He said the calf had been off the cow for approx. 2 months so this would be something that the calf contracted maybe just prior to weaning?

Could this otherwise healthy cow have contracted something during hauling (I think they hired someone to haul these cattle when they bought them).

WHAT diseases could have caused this? He had Johnes (sp?) suggested...but can anyone offer any input? For this to have killed the cow AND the calf, I'm wondering what diseases might be easily passed from one to the other...I know the calves will eat what "mom" eats so could there be something in his pasture that could have killed them both? :???:

I asked if any other cattle were affected... he said he had one other cow who had slipped a calf earlier in the year who was starting to look bad...the vet had come out and tried to get her to flush but he's not sure that she actually did flush completely. I told him I thought it would be a good idea to give THAT cow a good strong round of antibiotics but I'm worried he might have some disease going on there. I forgot to ask him if he followed a vaccination program but I'm guessing he doesn't...

This friend is Amish and cannot use the internet so I am going to send him the replies I get just to help him make sense of what happened so please be considerate with your answers...I explained to him that this website is filled with really good cattlemen (and women!) with lots more experience than ME who will offer some suggestions. I know you will suggest he have the calf posted... I think its too late for that... Thanks so much for your kindness...

 

[Angus Cowman]

without him having they cow or calf posted anything anyone says on here is just a shot in the dark
could be a 1000 things

 

[1982vett]

I don't know...just a long shot because of another statement PlumberGreg made in one of his posts about the tendency to feed grain because of it's proximity...

I'd look at the feed-stuff as a common source...(Is Johnes Disease really that common?)...What were these animals being fed and where did it come from. Not speaking ill of Amish or being Amish...but wasn't the weather a bit unusually hot in the area this year? What I'm getting at is the possibility of the grain (if fed) may have a high level of Aflatoxin. Just one of the 1000 theories AC was talking about.

 

[randiliana]

Possibly BVD. Cow could be PI, pass that on so the calf was PI and it can also result in other cows (not PI) aborting calves. But, that is just a guess, could be anything and just be coincidence that both that cow and her calf died. I would suggest that he have one or all of them (cow, calf, fetus) posted and definitely check for BVD.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Possibly BVD. Cow could be PI, pass that on so the calf was PI and it can also result in other cows (not PI) aborting calves. But, that is just a guess, could be anything and just be coincidence that both that cow and her calf died. I would suggest that he have one or all of them (cow, calf, fetus) posted and definitely check for BVD.

This would have been my first "guess".
Not likely Johnes (yes it is getting pretty common - especially in dairy areas) because Johnes does not start affecting them until around 2 years of age. You can't even test for it until they are over 2 years old.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

Thanks everyone... as I say, this is not me so its hard for me to answer those questions.... I asked what I could think of at the time we were on the phone and I'm going to call him back to ask about the feed, etc. but can someone tell me when it is too late to have them posted? I asked him if he was able to remove the carcasses from the herd pasture and he said yes...they're frozen. Could he still have them posted? If so, then I will definately suggest it...

I know it could be 1000 things... but just like (whoever said) Johnes doesn't show up until 2 years of age...that would pretty-much rule out Johnes. Like I said, I've been very fortunate NOT to have had any of these things "rear their ugly heads" (other than pneumonia/scours) so I was looking to you more experienced folks for suggestions. Thanks so much... I'm going to give him a call...

 

[Wisteria Farms]

OK...I tried to call him but he's not there...so I'm going to suggest that he have the sick cow (the one that aborted the calf earlier and is now deteriorating) tested... I did some reading and with the earnotch test he can atlease know if THAT cow is BVD-positive.

 

[upfrombottom]

He might also check for Anaplasmosis. Seems to be more and more common when it is hot and dry.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Now wait a minute. I have quite a few Amish neighbors, and I know their "rules" change from location to location; but your Amish friends have a PHONE!! Menenites have phones, but didn't know any Amish with phones. Doesn't make any difference - just curious.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

Now wait a minute. I have quite a few Amish neighbors, and I know their "rules" change from location to location; but your Amish friends have a PHONE!! Menenites have phones, but didn't know any Amish with phones. Doesn't make any difference - just curious.

Well...HR Belgians might be able to shed some light on this for me (HR...are you out there?). This is a mutual friend of ours and he is closer to the "Amish" situation than I am (he lives in the heart of Amish Country), but yes depending on the "Ordinung" they belong to.. how liberal or conservative they are, some DO and CAN have phones. However, he CANNOT have a computer or anything like that so I do what I can to help him. The Amish call us the "English" and I am honored that he feels like he CAN call me...they are a very peaceful people. Thank You.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Yes, I really enjoy them. Good neighbors. I knew there were variances of what they were allowed to do/have/use, but I sure didn't know they got that modern in some areas. Ours have tractors on steel wheels, but don't use them at all in the fields, strickly horses. I love to see the fields after they "shock" the wheat.

 

[3waycross]

When I was in Ks this summer picking up some cows. I ate lunch at an Amish restaurant. They dressed old timey but it was a regular restaurant.

 

[dun]

I was at an auction at an Amish farm a while back and a copule of the Amish women had digital cameras, that was a real shocker for me.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I was at an auction at an Amish farm a while back and a copule of the Amish women had digital cameras, that was a real shocker for me.

Yes, our group is having trouble traveling because most public transportation is asking for photo ID's and they are not allowed to take a picture of themselves.

 

[dun]

I had one group of Amish build a pole barn for me. They had a roundhead (english) that drove them and used the power tools. One of the Amish guys had a cellphone. It seems like the rules are pretty variable.

 

[Angus Cowman]

we have 2 or 3 different orders of Amish around here
1 group has tractors on rubber you see them all the time on the highway pulling wagons or stock trailers

2 other groups live very basic and are what the others call Old Order Amish
then we have some that don't have vehicles or electricity but do have cell phones for business purposes and use power tools for work purposes only

from what I have been told it is up to the Bishop of their church what they can and can't have

 

[Suzie Q]

The rules that I have seen on TV. They are not allowed to own a phone, but they are allowed to use yours.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Oh yeah, they aren't afraid or forbidden to use your phone - land line or cell. Ours must be old order.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

I had the pleasure of hosting an Amish couple and a Menonite couple in my home just over a year ago and it was a total pleasure... We consider them friends and I even got a HUGE box of noodles sent to me in "Thanks"...I find their life fascinating and as I stated before, I feel it an honor that this gentleman calls now and then as there are some who would be banned from their group for associating with the English. This is why I asked for your consideration in your replies to his problem... I know sometimes the boards can be vicious so I truly appreciate your willingness to throw a few ideas our way... I'm hoping he has the dead ones posted (if possible) and the live poor doer tested so he finds out what it is. I feel really bad for him as he just started in the breed (nothing from my farm, thank goodness) but it sounds as though he's had some bad luck and I'd love to help him get straightened out as best he can.