Health care/Medicare?

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zirlottkim":1auyiiag said:
In my opinion, there is almost no way of predicting what future healthcare or insurance cost will be. What will your dollars be worth? With the Federal debt steady increasing and more people on social programs, more dollars will be created by The Federal Reserve to pay for these programs...making products and services more and more expensive. What cost x today could very well cost xxxx in 10 years. I'm sure most retirees receive more Social Security and Medicare benefits in dollars than they ever paid in. But the question is, What was the value of dollars paid in back then vs value of dollars in benefits at the time received? In 1970, the average yearly income was $7700. In 2010 it was $48,000. Currency inflation. A dollar in 1912 would buy the same thing it would in 1889. The Federal Reserve was created in 1913 and look what has happened the last 100 years. I think you'ld need a crystal ball to answer the question .
There is no way I will live long enough to draw what the company and I contributed as stated on the SS site.
I payed off SS for thirty five years plus what I had to pay in self employment taxes.
That is okay going in it was pay to play insurance that is no longer the case many are drawing from the fund that have never paid.
 
Caustic Burno":2ri4ylaz said:
zirlottkim":2ri4ylaz said:
In my opinion, there is almost no way of predicting what future healthcare or insurance cost will be. What will your dollars be worth? With the Federal debt steady increasing and more people on social programs, more dollars will be created by The Federal Reserve to pay for these programs...making products and services more and more expensive. What cost x today could very well cost xxxx in 10 years. I'm sure most retirees receive more Social Security and Medicare benefits in dollars than they ever paid in. But the question is, What was the value of dollars paid in back then vs value of dollars in benefits at the time received? In 1970, the average yearly income was $7700. In 2010 it was $48,000. Currency inflation. A dollar in 1912 would buy the same thing it would in 1889. The Federal Reserve was created in 1913 and look what has happened the last 100 years. I think you'ld need a crystal ball to answer the question .
There is no way I will live long enough to draw what the company and I contributed as stated on the SS site.
I payed off SS for thirty five years plus what I had to pay in self employment taxes.
That is okay going in it was pay to play insurance that is no longer the case many are drawing from the fund that have never paid.

Dad and mom both lived into their 90s. They were born around 1920. To my knowledge, mom may have never paid a penny into SS. Dad's contribution was very limited as most of his life he was a subsistence farmer. His greatest contribution would have been his years as a road grader operator for the county. I would guess they received an enormous amount more than they contributed.

BTW: I totally agree with Zirlottkim.
 
There are some things we will never agree on of paying high taxes for government workers retirement plans that are not sustainable, welfare payments be it farm subsidies to public housing is nothing more than wealth redistribution. That is not even taking in the billions in foreign aide to countries that hate our guts.
 
Caustic Burno":1tp5z5oo said:
There are some things we will never agree on of paying high taxes for government workers retirement plans that are not sustainable, welfare payments be it farm subsidies to public housing is nothing more than wealth redistribution. That is not even taking in the billions in foreign aide to countries that hate our guts.
I agree 100% with cutting all of that out, plus more.
 
It's a brilliant plan to convince people that medical care is a right, and that right should be regulated by the government. If I was wanting to pull off fraud on a massive amount of people, this is how i would do it. When questioned, i would call those people uncaring, killers and ask them why they hate sick people- rather charitable medical care existed for those less fortunate or not.


Of course we all want medical care for the masses. The question is which is the best way to deliver it. An honest discussion will never happen. For an honest discussion to occur, one would have to admit that emergency care has not and could not be denied. Secondly, one would have to admit that there are clinics established to help those without insurance, even major surgery such as a spinal fusion that a lady I know had. She paid nothing.

Charity is charity. Charity is good. Charity is necessary for a society.

But, if we are to buy that charity is best delivered by the government. And that an entire industry must be nationalized/socialized/communized for the government to deliver this charity. And that the delivery is equal to all, no matter what has been paid into the system. Then this line of thought should be equally applied to all charitable needs that involve life and death. Not just the most lucrative one, or the one most easy to persuade people. Equal- I keep hearing this word, but it seems most don't actually understand it. However, this is no longer charity. When one is taxed, and government decides who receives, it is not charity.

So for discussion, let's just call health care a right in 2017 America. If you buy this as a right argument (you can't call it charity), then you must agree to the following. People need housing more than medical attention. Housing is a more immediate threat to life than medical attention. Shelter and food are part of the core neccesities of life. Since shelter is a core neccessity, and people may die without it, the government should nationalize housing. With nationalized housing, millions of homeless will have housing who currently do not have access to housing. With nationalization, we will all have equal access and equal housing no matter how much you contribute. Of course, the tax will be based off of ability to pay, the exact same as health care- no difference what so ever. Some with bigger families, no matter their ability to contribute of course will use more housing.
People with these huge over sized housing plans will be charged a luxery tax so that in a short period of time, housing will become more equal. It's obviously the right thing to do since it's right there in the Constitutuon. Right to life, and housing, and medical care, and food. It's right there next to free speech and their right to other people's property- their money through taxes for purposes other than national business.

As was stated earlier, people have more need of food than medical care. Without food, in a short period of time we would all die. Therefor, since medicine must be nationalized to deliver this charity, scratch that. I mean this right of health care, then it is obvious that food and it's production and delivery must be nationalized as well.
The government can relieve you all of your little farms and ranches because as is known, the government can run things more efficiently.

I'm sure no matter what industry you work in, the government can always be more efficient.

The bigger the government, the more efficient.

Ask Communist countries throughout history. Communism and not a free economy with charity is what built America. It's what made America a leader in the field of medicine. Matter of fact, though one of the youngest countries, it is a leader or near the top in many industries. All thanks to the nationalization of them.

Look out North Korea, you've got competition now from aged baby boomers wanting someone else to pay their medical bills and the millenial morons living in their parents basements!


If as a state, you decide to enact such madness, I say good for you.
 
By the way, who is stopping any state that wants to enact single payer from doing so?

If there is nothing stopping them, then why aren't they?

If they want it, but haven't enacted it, why are they only for it happening at the federal level?
 
I can disagree with the aged baby boomers being one paying 700 a month for medical. The majority of the boomers actually went to work for a living.
We did a pi$$ poor job with generation X that is when the wagon got in the ditch. The welfare system didn't come in until the mid 60's and Gen X was programmed and off to the races.
 
I'm gen x and 40 years old. I've maxed out ss every year since I turned 21. I'll never get back what I paid in . I'm just a ass hole but when you start talking means testing and making things "fair and equal " I'm done with the discussion. What I make is mine what I can afford to buy is up to me and if I want to have better health care and nicer house because I can afford it then that's what I'm gonna do. I don't understand people that think the government knows best . I have no compassion for lazy people or people that claim once poor always poor. I had 1 pair of jeans and 3 shirts most years in school . I have eaten so many wish sandwiches I can't count . But we were never on government assistance and both my parents worked. I knew from a early age that wasn't how I wanted to live so I learned a trade. My blood boils when it comes to socialist views.
 
Caustic Burno":2rzm2rp7 said:
I can disagree with the aged baby boomers being one paying 700 a month for medical. The majority of the boomers actually went to work for a living.
We did a pi$$ poor job with generation X that is when the wagon got in the ditch. The welfare system didn't come in until the mid 60's and Gen X was programmed and off to the races.

Generalizations are generalizations. Does not and cannot apply to all, but catches more than not.

We'll disagree on our generalization of baby boomers. WW2 generation came home and had their fill of war and evil. In general, they had economic prosperity and a memory of the great depression they had not long before experienced. All this created a perfect storm of spoiling their baby boomer children- without intention I'm sure.

But the free love, pot smoking, spoiled hippy generation didn't happen without cause.

Generation x didn't elect Carter.
Generation x didn't elect Clinton. Generation x didn't raise themselves.
Generation x wasn't bombing public buildings in the 60's fighting for socialism.
And in general haven't been the majority for the past 40 years driving our country toward socialism; recklessly ignoring national spending and debt; agging on the outrageous awards and litigeous environment of medicine; and in general being known as the "me generation."

This is just facts. The generalization isn't a claim against all that happened to be born in that time. I acknowledge the deficiencies of my own generation, but don't accept the responsibilty of that which i disagreed with.

Generation x has their own problems. This does not aleviate baby boomers from theirs.
 
JSCATTLE":1gbm8r6i said:
I'm gen x and 40 years old. I've maxed out ss every year since I turned 21. I'll never get back what I paid in . I'm just a be nice hole but when you start talking means testing and making things "fair and equal " I'm done with the discussion. What I make is mine what I can afford to buy is up to me and if I want to have better health care and nicer house because I can afford it then that's what I'm gonna do. I don't understand people that think the government knows best . I have no compassion for lazy people or people that claim once poor always poor. I had 1 pair of jeans and 3 shirts most years in school . I have eaten so many wish sandwiches I can't count . But we were never on government assistance and both my parents worked. I knew from a early age that wasn't how I wanted to live so I learned a trade. My blood boils when it comes to socialist views.

By maxing out, do you mean that you've reached the income cap of taxable ss every year since 21? If so, you were making good money at a very early age- good for you if you were able to do that.
 
Commercialfarmer":2l9ocut4 said:
JSCATTLE":2l9ocut4 said:
I'm gen x and 40 years old. I've maxed out ss every year since I turned 21. I'll never get back what I paid in . I'm just a be nice hole but when you start talking means testing and making things "fair and equal " I'm done with the discussion. What I make is mine what I can afford to buy is up to me and if I want to have better health care and nicer house because I can afford it then that's what I'm gonna do. I don't understand people that think the government knows best . I have no compassion for lazy people or people that claim once poor always poor. I had 1 pair of jeans and 3 shirts most years in school . I have eaten so many wish sandwiches I can't count . But we were never on government assistance and both my parents worked. I knew from a early age that wasn't how I wanted to live so I learned a trade. My blood boils when it comes to socialist views.

By maxing out, do you mean that you've reached the income cap of taxable ss every year since 21? If so, you were making good money at a very early age- good for you if you were able to do that.
Yes that is what I mean .
 
Commercialfarmer":v4s2mxyh said:
Generalizations are generalizations. Does not and cannot apply to all, but catches more than not.

We'll disagree on our generalization of baby boomers. WW2 generation came home and had their fill of war and evil. In general, they had economic prosperity and a memory of the great depression they had not long before experienced. All this created a perfect storm of spoiling their baby boomer children- without intention I'm sure.

But the free love, pot smoking, spoiled hippy generation didn't happen without cause.

Generation x didn't elect Carter.
Generation x didn't elect Clinton. Generation x didn't raise themselves.
Generation x wasn't bombing public buildings in the 60's fighting for socialism.
And in general haven't been the majority for the past 40 years driving our country toward socialism; recklessly ignoring national spending and debt; agging on the outrageous awards and litigeous environment of medicine; and in general being known as the "me generation."

This is just facts. The generalization isn't a claim against all that happened to be born in that time. I acknowledge the deficiencies of my own generation, but don't accept the responsibilty of that which i disagreed with.

Generation x has their own problems. This does not aleviate baby boomers from theirs.

CF, you raise some good food for thought (although I disagree with some parts, like the supposed big lawsuit awards). The way the current Medicare reform/abolishment is looking, the plan is (last I read) to discontinue it for those now under 55. That includes me. That 55 cutoff is almost exactly the end of the baby boom generation. Seems the Boomers are asking us genXer's (I'm at the older end of that cohort) to pay in to support their Medicare (since it was raided for the Iraq war and I'm sure a ton else), then they are pulling up the ladder on their way out the door.
I'm facing the same thing with SS--near the cutoff when they're going to raise the age again.
(Feels like when I was a teenager--just before I hit 18 they raised the drinking age in my state to 19. When I was almost 19? Yup, went to 21).
Most Medicare-covered medical expenses are incurred in the last few months of life. But no one wants to have a serious national conversation about that; when it's somebody's else's grandma, it's "wasted money" but when it's your own grandma (or yourself), you/we want every last effort made. Heck, we had a big kerfluffle a few years back when a certain Alaskan swore it would lead to "death panels" to even allow drs to discuss with a patient what values were important to them at the end of their lives, and how much treatment they would want under what circumstances...
 
JSCATTLE":1m8dtqkl said:
hurleyjd":1m8dtqkl said:
JSCATTLE":1m8dtqkl said:
I won't struggle. I learned a trade at an early age. I can make as much as I do now working construction in the plants. If I lose my job I'll go to work at another plant either construction or in operations. I will get hired before these kids coming out of college with a p tach degree because of experience. I've never been without a job since I was 13 years old . Now I do agree with taking care of the people with health issues . And by health issues i mean thunks that keep you from being able to work. Cancer etc. But being fat isn't an excuse . So I'd be very strict on who was actually sick.

Could you perform your skills that make your living confined in a wheel chair.[/quote

No. That's why I said I agree with taking care of those who have actual disabilities and long term medical issues that prevent you from preforming a job . But I'm smart enough to learn a desk job if I was confined to a wheelchair ..

What about smoking? Alcohol use? Fast food intake? Sedentary lifestyle? Not taking blood pressure meds?
What if you have the BRCA gene--are you required to get a preventive mastectomy?
Gardasil (HPV vaccine) prevents many strains of cervical cancer (in women) and oral cancer (in men); are you going to refuse coverage to those who didn't get vaccinated? Refuse coverage to those with flu or pneumonia who didn't get vaccinated? Refuse coverage for colon cancer to those who didn't get their colonoscopies?
I'm just curious if you'd refuse health care for those folks. Note: I agree with a good deal of what you say, I just struggle with where you draw the line...For example, you say to cover those with cancer but not fat people. You're aware there's a big relationship between the two, I assume?
 
boondocks":2l9i1o75 said:
JSCATTLE":2l9i1o75 said:

Could you perform your skills that make your living confined in a wheel chair.[/quote

No. That's why I said I agree with taking care of those who have actual disabilities and long term medical issues that prevent you from preforming a job . But I'm smart enough to learn a desk job if I was confined to a wheelchair ..

What about smoking? Alcohol use? Fast food intake? Sedentary lifestyle? Not taking blood pressure meds?
What if you have the BRCA gene--are you required to get a preventive mastectomy?
Gardasil (HPV vaccine) prevents many strains of cervical cancer (in women) and oral cancer (in men); are you going to refuse coverage to those who didn't get vaccinated? Refuse coverage to those with flu or pneumonia who didn't get vaccinated? Refuse coverage for colon cancer to those who didn't get their colonoscopies?
I'm just curious if you'd refuse health care for those folks. Note: I agree with a good deal of what you say, I just struggle with where you draw the line...For example, you say to cover those with cancer but not fat people. You're aware there's a big relationship between the two, I assume?
Bottom line if it's a debilitating disease that prevents a person from working or if the person is elderly and can't work. we already have coverage for these people with medicade. I dont a gree with paying for someone who makes bad decisions in life. I don't want to be forced into some expensive low value plan just because everyone has a "right " to health care. I don't like the socialist idea that one person should pay more for the same product because they make more money .
 
JSCATTLE":8q4m8oaw said:
boondocks":8q4m8oaw said:
JSCATTLE":8q4m8oaw said:
Could you perform your skills that make your living confined in a wheel chair.[/quote

No. That's why I said I agree with taking care of those who have actual disabilities and long term medical issues that prevent you from preforming a job . But I'm smart enough to learn a desk job if I was confined to a wheelchair ..

What about smoking? Alcohol use? Fast food intake? Sedentary lifestyle? Not taking blood pressure meds?
What if you have the BRCA gene--are you required to get a preventive mastectomy?
Gardasil (HPV vaccine) prevents many strains of cervical cancer (in women) and oral cancer (in men); are you going to refuse coverage to those who didn't get vaccinated? Refuse coverage to those with flu or pneumonia who didn't get vaccinated? Refuse coverage for colon cancer to those who didn't get their colonoscopies?
I'm just curious if you'd refuse health care for those folks. Note: I agree with a good deal of what you say, I just struggle with where you draw the line...For example, you say to cover those with cancer but not fat people. You're aware there's a big relationship between the two, I assume?
Bottom line if it's a debilitating disease that prevents a person from working or if the person is elderly and can't work. we already have coverage for these people with medicade. I dont a gree with paying for someone who makes bad decisions in life. I don't want to be forced into some expensive low value plan just because everyone has a "right " to health care. I don't like the socialist idea that one person should pay more for the same product because they make more money .

Now there is a difference Medicare is paid for Medicaid isn't
If you on Medicare alone you will have some major medical bills as there is no max out of pocket. You have to be 65 to be Medicare eligible you can be an 20 year old crack head and on Medicaid
Medicaid is welfare for all the Gen x that won't work and game the system along with illegal immigrants.
 
I guess what I'm saying is if I'm going to have to pay into something to give to the Crack heads and illegals, I want the option to have better health care if I choose and can afford it as opposed to being put on the same plan as them and paying more for the lesser coverage..

Bottom line is we can't fix everything . People die. Eventually we all have to play the cards that God dealt to us .. Life isn't fair . Never has been and never will be..
 
JSCATTLE":3ljq1k7i said:
I guess what I'm saying is if I'm going to have to pay into something to give to the Crack heads and illegals, I want the option to have better health care if I choose and can afford it as opposed to being put on the same plan as them and paying more for the lesser coverage..

Bottom line is we can't fix everything . People die. Eventually we all have to play the cards that God dealt to us .. Life isn't fair . Never has been and never will be..

The problem with the way the system is rigged those of us who had to pay to play are still forced to pay for those that didn't .At 65 you have to sign up for Medicare and your company medical plan and pay for both or only be covered at 80%. Check your retirement medical plan .
 
The problem is we will never get back to people being responsible for themselves . hunger will light a fire in a person to work . Free food and other handout programs have killed the will to work. Same with health care .
 
Nice racket doctors have.. Not exactly a "free market"

...the federal government subsidizes residency programs to the tune of $13 billion per year,..

The number and composition of residencies is controlled by doctors, even as they're subsidized by $13 billion in taxpayer money every year. And doctor pay, which almost everywhere is based on Medicare rates, is controlled by doctors. It's doctors who are directly responsible for both their own high pay and their own low numbers.
 
HDRider":3o9z2nvc said:
Nice racket doctors have.. Not exactly a "free market"

...the federal government subsidizes residency programs to the tune of $13 billion per year,..

The number and composition of residencies is controlled by doctors, even as they're subsidized by $13 billion in taxpayer money every year. And doctor pay, which almost everywhere is based on Medicare rates, is controlled by doctors. It's doctors who are directly responsible for both their own high pay and their own low numbers.

Most health care providers (drs, PA's) are just employees of health care systems now, and don't set their own pay at all. They have patients who call them at home (without having been given the number); threaten their lives (and file formal complaints to which the provider must respond) if they don't gave them opioids; sent them a million messages through the new electronic medical records platforms asking questions like "Which brand of vitamin should I take?" (all of which the provider is expected to respond to within 2 hours, despite being in with patients all day); having to fill out (without pay) hundreds of pages of forms every week for insurers that just want to put up roadblocks, and for patients who are on workers' comp or applying for disability..I could go on...have two close family members who are worked like dogs on the modern-day assembly line of health care (especially in primary care and other "non-specialties"). Ain't the gig it used to be (if it ever was)...
 

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