Hay

Gather App
Dave said:
One of my neighbors says we spend half the year making hay and the other half feeding it. Off by a bit but something like that.
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Kinda depressing when you look at it from 10,000 feet like that... but I guess that's what we're all doing in life in some way shape or form isn't it....
 
Re taxes - not sure if this will get me banned or not - my wife and I adopted a sibling group of four kids when they were in elementary school. We foster parented them for 2 years and then adopted them when their parental rights were terminated. We did receive a subsidy for doing that - but we did it because some kids needed a home, not for the money. That said, I'm grateful for each and every one of you who paid their taxes so we could help these kids. For the most part, they are what many would call "welfare kids" from a
"welfare home" and maybe didn't deserve your money or your help. You helping us help them was certainly not voluntary! I get that. But, thank you anyway. Today one is a nurse, one is a teacher, one is leading his HR group at his organization and one is.... well... struggling a bit more. Taxes today are considered a form of socialism. Maybe they are. Maybe they aren't. All I know is that whatever you call it, it helped these kids (and my wife and me) survive and the world is better for it. The same is true when we help farmers who get down and behind. 99% of people are not crooks or deadbeats - contrary to today's running narrative. All people just need some help sometimes and for us, and for some of you, that help came from the government (which is another way of saying it came from you). So, thank you for helping our family launch these kids into being productive human beings - I'm happy to return what I can to you when drought hits through my own taxes. Having known many people in these different types of circles, I'm convinced neither of these people groups are deadbeats contrary to what we're all being fed about each other.

I shall now wait here for my message from the administrator!! :)
 
angus9259 said:
Re taxes - not sure if this will get me banned or not - my wife and I adopted a sibling group of four kids when they were in elementary school. We foster parented them for 2 years and then adopted them when their parental rights were terminated. We did receive a subsidy for doing that - but we did it because some kids needed a home, not for the money. That said, I'm grateful for each and every one of you who paid their taxes so we could help these kids. For the most part, they are what many would call "welfare kids" from a
"welfare home" and maybe didn't deserve your money or your help. You helping us help them was certainly not voluntary! I get that. But, thank you anyway. Today one is a nurse, one is a teacher, one is leading his HR group at his organization and one is.... well... struggling a bit more. Taxes today are considered a form of socialism. Maybe they are. Maybe they aren't. All I know is that whatever you call it, it helped these kids (and my wife and me) survive and the world is better for it. The same is true when we help farmers who get down and behind. 99% of people are not crooks or deadbeats - contrary to today's running narrative. All people just need some help sometimes and for us, and for some of you, that help came from the government (which is another way of saying it came from you). So, thank you for helping our family launch these kids into being productive human beings - I'm happy to return what I can to you when drought hits through my own taxes. Having known many people in these different types of circles, I'm convinced neither of these people groups are deadbeats contrary to what we're all being fed about each other.

I shall now wait here for my message from the administrator!! :)
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If you get banned for that than I'd like to get banned as well. We need more statements like the above. Thank you!
 
acefire said:
Do you do your own tax return ... or does a CPA? I have found the CPA pays for themselves.
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I've tested this. One year my brother talked me into using his CPA because we were partners in a business. But the lady was hellacious expensive so I also did my taxes using Turbo Tax, and H&R Block... and returns came out within $15 of each other. The CPA charged $800. I'd say the CPA was far more expensive.
 
Travlr said:
I've tested this. One year my brother talked me into using his CPA because we were partners in a business. But the lady was hellacious expensive so I also did my taxes using Turbo Tax, and H&R Block... and returns came out within $15 of each other. The CPA charged $800. I'd say the CPA was far more expensive.
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Do you recall how long your execution took you? How much per hour did you make so to speak?
 
We use a CPA for the business, but it is far more complicated than farming. Wouldn’t even consider doing them myself. CPA does have a place. Plus if it’s wrong and you get audited, he gets to answer questions not you. That’s why we use him
 
@angus9259 ... I give you my utmost respect for taking in, giving the kids a home, KEEPING A FAMILY TOGETHER... and raising them up to be productive members of society... I am not against paying taxes... and pay them on my income from working for 50+ years... pay them on my house and the hundreds of other ways we pay taxes... I make charitable contributions to organizations... and I try to help when and where I can.
I also admire people like you who can/do/did something selfless, and yes, if the gov't helped you some, I am all for it...
I am against the idea that if I have a good year, that I have to pay more and more taxes instead of being able to sock some of that "surplus" back for the next lean year I have.... To not want to get gov't assistance for anything... just let me "budget my own money" for my own benefit and let someone else have the gov't help because I can take care of my own life...
In this state, with the ones in gov't now, there is so much stupid stuff being done, and taking away of the common sense being RESPONSIBLE for yourself. The problem I also see, is that they claim all this is for the benefit of all the people, but we see things fall into worse and worse condition, and with needing the work done, there is a whole contingent of people who WON'T work because it is too hard, does not pay enough, they will lose this or that benefit from the gov't ... so don't work, just stay on the "dole"....
There is none of the make it do or do without mindset... It's the entitled mindset that I just cannot deal with because they want someone else, who has more money, to "pay for it".
Sounds to me like you did a great job overall of teaching those kids responsibility and a work ethic... I applaud you a thousand times over... and am GLAD that you got a little help through taxes that were paid... BY PEOPLE THAT WORKED to pay them.
 
"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money" - Margaret Thatcher

There is a proper place for "help programs"... and a better way to implement them. "Help" to find a job = great! "Help" to lift you up = great!

FDR, though of a different stripe than me politically, had a great plan... put people who needed work to work doing things that the government needed done, and teach them skills in the process. That gives those you're helping a sense of grit, and integrity. They're giving something for the benefits they're receiving. And that experience helps to open doors to bigger and better things.

That "help" should have a transitional sunset clause written into it too... so that it is known, and it creates incentive for seeking those "bigger and better things" that happen outside of the program... set it up so that the individual is better off transitioning out of the program, benefits-wise, and they can SEE that. And there should be some "economics education" that goes right along with the "hand-up". Farm programs are no different, IMO.

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day... teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime.
 
farmerjan said:
Why do we get penalized on high income years and then get next to no "help" on years that the prices do not give us a living wage???? Why can farmers not keep back money from the good years, and then have it to average out the tough ones???? Without taxes taking it from the good years when we could have better invested it to PAY OURSELVES on the LEAN YEARS?????
If they quit taxing us so much on good years, then on the really tough years, we would not need the "gov't assistance" that they so "generously dole out"...
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This made me remember "Income Averaging on Schedule G" from 40 something years ago. I remember using that to save on taxes in the early 80's when inflation was extremely high and I was early in my work career and was getting pretty good raises due to those two things. In those days, taxes were done on paper forms you got from the government using a #2 pencil to fill the forms. No internet help, no tax software, just the mystery of filling out paper forms.

But my memory of income averaging at that time is that it saved on taxes due to varying income levels over time. Due to the internet invention, I see now that income averaging for everyone was eliminated in 1986. However is still available for farmers and commercial fishermen using schedule J and can reduce taxes by basing income on a 3 year average. I had never heard of schedule J, but might be worth your time to ask your tax person about it. Not exactly what you mentioned, but might be a help to average out good years and bad years. Maybe someone here knows about schedule J and can comment.

Here is a simple explanation that I found on the web.
"Income averaging was a tax break that assisted people with large income deviations up until 1986. After the 1986 Tax Reform Act, income averaging was eliminated for everyone except fishermen and farmers.

How does income averaging work? Prior to the 1986 Tax Reform Act, income averaging allowed a taxpayer who had large swings in income to average the adjusted gross income from two prior tax years together with the current year in order to average the taxes that had to be paid. For example, suppose a taxpayer earned $100,000 and paid $20,000 in taxes in year one, then the taxpayer made $300,000 and paid $80,000 in year two, but then lost $100,000 in year three. Without income averaging, in year three the taxpayer would pay no taxes since there is no income. But with income averaging, the taxpayer would be able to average his income for all three years, resulting in an average of $100,000 per year. How do I get $100,000 per year average? The taxpayer earned $100,000 in year one, plus $300,000 in year two, minus $100,000 in year 3, divided by 3 years equals an average of $100,000 per year.

How much tax would the taxpayer pay under income averaging? Under income averaging, the taxpayer would be permitted to recalculate the taxes owed in year one, year two, and year three based on an average income of $100,000 per year. Since we know that the tax on $100,000 is $20,000, the taxpayer would need to pay $20,000 in taxes for year 1, plus another $20,000 for year 2, and another $20,000 for year 3. A total of $60,000 in taxes is owed over the three years based on the income average of $100,000 for each year. However, the taxpayer already paid $20,000 in year one, and $80,000 in year two for a total of $100,000. Therefore, in year 3, the taxpayer would receive a refund of $40,000, the difference between the $100,000 paid in taxes and the $60,000 owed due to income averaging, because he overpaid his income taxes using income averaging."
 
angus9259 said:
Do you recall how long your execution took you? How much per hour did you make so to speak?
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We keep our receipts and forms filed so they are easily found and organized. Years of doing our own taxes makes it pretty easy.
It's all just forms to fill out. They ask questions and you find the right numbers and fill them in. A little basic math and it's done.
When my wife and I first got married we used a CPA. We were traveling for my job and rented our house. We had a casualty lose and a loss on the rental due to a plumbing loss, and we we audited. The CPA went in and cut a deal that cost us an extra 500 bucks to the IRS... and that's when we started to do our own taxes.
 
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anewcomer said:
I know that I’m a contrarian on this board, but there are a few really sharp producers on here. I know that in many parts of America, hay is a requirement. But some of you good producers who obsess over hay production and quality need to readjust your thought processes to reducing or eliminating hay making and feeding. I know that producers in north Alabama, like coachg, can eliminate hay feeding with very little adjustment to their program. A very good friend loves to make hay. He loves driving a tractor. He’s very good at making high quality hay. I support his decision, but I encourage him to be aware of the total cost of his hay. Fertilizer, herbicide, equipment costs, operating costs, feeding costs, etc. A little adjustment in his grazing plan and, perhaps, calving date would eliminate his need for hay. A mutual friend, in the same environment, spent $16/hd last year on wintering costs. Nobody on this board, regardless of environment, can’t reduce or maybe even eliminate hay feeding with just a little innovative thinking. At worst, consider buying hay rather than producing it. In the southeast, I doubt there are many hay producers who can’t buy hay cheaper than they produce it, if they consider their true cost. We are grass farmers, we are not cattlemen. A cow or calf is only the package we put our grass in to get paid for it. I welcome your responses.
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I believe that there are places where you can graze year round reliably without supplementation. A lot of us don't live in them.

Where I am we get most of our 30" of precipitation between February and June. This creates an over abundance of green grass in the spring, and shortage in July and August, maybe some fall green up, and 3/4 months of winter which could have snow cover.

Around here harvesting hay preserves more nutrition than allowing it to stockpile and then winter graze, this produces better feed at the cost of putting it up. I have a neighbor who doesn't put his cows out until after the hay gets cut, so late June or early July. This way he optimizes the output of his hay ground/pasture and reduces the waste that would be associated with letting his cow herd become over conditioned in May/June on green grass.

I graze in the spring and buy hay from dryland farmers. The cost to them of building fence and water infrastructure makes hay production vs grazing more enticing.

Revisit your cost per acre and stocking rate calculations under the assumption that every 2-3 tons of hay I buy is an acre(or a lot more depending) I don't have to own, fence, and maintain. I think you'd find the highest stocking rates and profits on feed are going to come from dry lot conditions.
 
There is miles of higher elevation range area here that makes for good grazing April to November. But there is too much snow up there on 39 out of 40 years. So the cows have to come to the lower elevation valley. Hay is made in the limited acres in valley and fed back to the cows who spend the winter out on the hay fields. Back in pioneer days they tried not feeding in the winter. Lots of cows died. Even on mild winters cows dies. On tough winters whole herds died. So we put hay in stacks to feed through the winter. Lots of things have been done to improve the efficiency both in time and cost but we still feed hay.
 
South Alabama folks can plant rye grass for winter grazing but in North Alabama you can get it started in fall but by winter it doesn’t grow much if any . We try to hold some pasture for winter grazing but it goes pretty quick . So hay is a must . Ms Gizmo can give you more info on growing winter grazing . She’s right across the Alabama line in N Florida
 
So different in the fescue belt. I can stockpile much higher protein grass than I can produce in hay. In the past I have posted the test results for several years and for all months of the winter. I can get the fescue stockpile to test 19% but cant seem to get mixed grass hay to test over 12.5-13%. But green fescue in May wont test as high as stockpile fescue in January.
I do feed some hay but can pretty easily graze 330 days per year. But we dont have much snow.
 

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