Had to pull twins. Retained placenta

[Hunny Do Ranch]

Had a cow get one of the twins out on her own and we had to pull the other one. Both dead and stinky. She hasn't cleaned herself out yet and it is hanging and just reaks. I put in some after calving boluses in. Is there anything else I can do? I have oxytocin but thats it.

 

[dun]

Give it time. If it's dragging on the ground tie it back to itself so that it's about udder level. Don;t try to pull it. If the cow gets sick, i.e. off feed, feverish, etc., that's time enough to do something with antibiotics. 99.9% of the time they will clean and have no ill affects.

dun

 

[cowvet]

If they were dead and stinky then she should be on systemic antibiotics now!

 

[Hunny Do Ranch]

Should I give her some pen? I also have oxytetracyclin.

 

[rockridgecattle]

use the oxytocin too. 5 ml right away. then 2ml (?) every 4 hours...check with your vet. couldn't find our calving checklist the vet puts out yearly. so check with the vet on doses and times. Oxytocin started as soon as possible. Best effective within 48hrs. Oxytocin opens the cervix to help prevent infections and helps to shrink the uterus. Our vet recommend a shot after every hard pull or twins to help shrink the uterus.

 

[hillsdown]

You need to infuse her right away.Use dextrose and ocytetracycline.Due this before her cervix closes(it is easier to do) and make sure you go under the afterbirth.Take a bottle of dextrose and 2 tablespoons of oxyteteracycline and put them in a calf esoph. feeder.Insert the tube through the vulva going under the placenta and you need to get to through cervix and then open the feeder and the liquid will go in to the right spot.Give her a shot of dexamethasome and antibiotics.The afterbirth should be off in a day if not infuse again.

 

[Hunny Do Ranch]

Looks like she has passed the placenta. She has a really cloudy right eye now. I have no idea what that is from. She is eating and acting pretty good. We put another calf on her. I would have to say she milks even nicer than our jersey.

 

[hillsdown]

Well that is good news a hard pull on cows is bad news for them especially twins.I would keep an eye on her and check her temp for the next couple of day if the calves were dead in her for a while she could become toxic.You might want to hit her with a good antibiotic something stronger than a long lasting pen (like a trivetrin or excenol type) it will help her eye also.SO now you will just havve to wait and see for that first heat in 3 weeks to tell how much damge those twins caused.
Good luck.

 

[Hunny Do Ranch]

Thanks for the advice. I really help it clears up her eye as well. I am kinda attached to this one. She knows her name. I know i am not supposed to get attached but sometimes its hard. I don't know what could have happened to her eye, its really weird.

 

[cowvet]

You need to infuse her right away.Use dextrose and ocytetracycline.Due this before her cervix closes(it is easier to do) and make sure you go under the afterbirth.Take a bottle of dextrose and 2 tablespoons of oxyteteracycline and put them in a calf esoph. feeder.Insert the tube through the vulva going under the placenta and you need to get to through cervix and then open the feeder and the liquid will go in to the right spot.Give her a shot of dexamethasome and antibiotics.The afterbirth should be off in a day if not infuse again.

Why on earth would you want to put dextrose inside her uterus - the only thing that should go in a cows uterus is something that is designed specially for that purpose.

Dextrose is fantastic for growing bacteria in and one of the reasons I don't recommend it is used unless it goes in a sterile place (such as IV for ketosis etc). NEVER inject dextrose under the skin - unless you want to deal with the abscess later on!!!

The initial post mentions that he has already put some calving boluses in - assume these have antibiotics.

Dexamethasone - suppresses the immune system - not the anti-inflammatory of choice when dealing with a sick cow.

This cow needs systemic/injectible antibiotics - to prevent septicaemia etc. A cow that has a rotten calving is at a huge risk of dying from septicaemia/blood poisoning.

 

[hillsdown]

Cow Vet that may be your opinion but I learned from some of the best highest producing dairies around BCA's in the 250 - 300 range and averages of 35-45 liters a day average.Not stantion barns either.This is what was instructed by vets around here and still is.So if you have new miracle drugs to infuse with then please share them with the rest of us.Also we never used boluses and still don't.Thankfully with beef I don't have to do it very often as they are not pushed genetically or production wise as dairy but the times I do the retained placenta is off in 12-28 hours and natural heat is back in 17-24 days.The last one that retained was a 15 year old holstien due to her 13th calf in November.

 

[milkmaid]

In response to several random comments...

Oxytocin isn't responsible for opening the cervix. Estrogen does that. Oxytocin does not work for ob purposes, period, except in the presence of estrogen. Also, the estrogen level rises at calving, and decreases sharply after calving. Oxytocin is most effective immediately after calving, and ineffective 48 hours after calving. The only way oxytocin can be used effectively after 48 hours after calving is IF the cow is given a shot of estrogen. In my neck of the woods it's sold as "ECP" and lasts for about 7 days.

No dexamethasone on a systemically sick cow, and no dextrose in the uterus. I've infused oxytet 100 into the uterus with success (no milk withdrawal on that one!), but that's a whole lot different than putting 500mLs of sugar into a bacteria-laden environment. I've also heard of folks infusing an iodine solution and I hear that has good results too.

Calving boluses on this side of the water are often made of urea, and designed to break down the retained membranes so they can be expelled. Most of them do not contain antibiotics.

I've worked on a dairy for several years too, tried a lot of things, watched a lot of calvings, sick cows, uterine infections... beef cows aren't as sensitive, but dairy animals get really sick and fast if the afterbirth isn't expelled within several days. If it won't come out naturally or with drugs, then it needs to be removed. I've seen enough cows sick and dead from uterine infections or secondary causes that I don't mess around in this area.

 

[cowvet]

Cow Vet that may be your opinion but I learned from some of the best highest producing dairies around BCA's in the 250 - 300 range and averages of 35-45 liters a day average.Not stantion barns either.This is what was instructed by vets around here and still is.So if you have new miracle drugs to infuse with then please share them with the rest of us.Also we never used boluses and still don't.Thankfully with beef I don't have to do it very often as they are not pushed genetically or production wise as dairy but the times I do the retained placenta is off in 12-28 hours and natural heat is back in 17-24 days.The last one that retained was a 15 year old holstien due to her 13th calf in November.

With all due respect to your lessons - my opinions are based on my experience as a senior cattle veterinarian based in a practice that services about 60,000 dairy cows. We run a seasonal calving pattern so I know all about cows having to calve annually to fit our pasture based system. One of the common spring jobs is advising and dealing with retained foetal membranes in order to get those cows pregnant asap. I keep up to date on international info on recommended therapies and have done a search tonight on ideas involving dextrose into the uterus (in case I missed something) - couldn't find anything. By all means go ahead and treat your own this way but it is dangerous ground to recommend it to others when there are no facts to back it up as a beneficial treatment - and how do we know it is not detrimental !!??

I don't use antibiotics in the uterus if the membranes are still attached unless the cow is toxic and the situation is life threatening... this is widely accepted internationally as the best approach.

We have laws preventing the use of non registered products in animals so I am not prone to experimenting with different homemade options. However I have seen situations where farmers have infused their cows with "recipes" they had heard about from various sources - one of my farmers had to cull 6 cows with uterine adhesions one year after flushing them with a mixture that caused damage to the very sensitive tissues in the uterus

Here is a general link from a reputable source...


http://www.wcds.afns.ualberta.ca/Procee ... chap08.htm

 

[Ryder]

I've also heard of folks infusing an iodine solution and I hear that has good results too

I think there was a post on these boards about using iodine.

Any one interested could probably find it by doing a 'search'.

 

[milkmaid]

I've also heard of folks infusing an iodine solution and I hear that has good results too

I think there was a post on these boards about using iodine.

Any one interested could probably find it by doing a 'search'.

Here it is...
http://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19267

Scroll down to cert's post.

After reading cowvet's last post... I'd better add a disclaimer to anything I say. :lol: I have not actually tried the iodine solution for intrauterine infusion. I hear it works, but I haven't any experience with it. I have infused oxytet100 for cows with severe infections, and it does work OK. I've found systemic use of long lasting pennicillin to work the best for cows with uterine infections of any systemic antibiotic I've tried yet.

Out of curiousity... cowvet, why don't you use antibiotics if the membranes are still attached? I think I have an idea, but I'll just ask first rather than making myself look like an idiot. LOL. Thanks.

 

[cowvet]

I've also heard of folks infusing an iodine solution and I hear that has good results too

I think there was a post on these boards about using iodine.

Any one interested could probably find it by doing a 'search'.

Funny you should mention that - iodine was what my farmer used to flush his cows - made it too strong and wrecked them!!!!

 

[cowvet]

I've also heard of folks infusing an iodine solution and I hear that has good results too

I think there was a post on these boards about using iodine.

Any one interested could probably find it by doing a 'search'.

Here it is...
http://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19267

Scroll down to cert's post.

After reading cowvet's last post... I'd better add a disclaimer to anything I say. :lol: I have not actually tried the iodine solution for intrauterine infusion. I hear it works, but I haven't any experience with it. I have infused oxytet100 for cows with severe infections, and it does work OK. I've found systemic use of long lasting pennicillin to work the best for cows with uterine infections of any systemic antibiotic I've tried yet.

Out of curiousity... cowvet, why don't you use antibiotics if the membranes are still attached? I think I have an idea, but I'll just ask first rather than making myself look like an idiot. LOL. Thanks.

If you search the research on this topic you will see the vast majority suggests that intrauterine antibiotics do not help (and can actually cause more problems and damage the uterus and slow rebreeding rates!!!)

http://www.livestocktrail.uiuc.edu/dair ... tentID=163

The ONLY times I use intrauterine antibiotic is if the animal has a toxic metritis and her life is in danger...

or more than two weeks post calving - we have a product that is registered for the use of pyometra (pus in the uterus) which is a cephaolosporin antibiotic - no milk withholding. I use this in conjunction with protaglandins to evacuate the uterus.

 

[rockridgecattle]

milkmaid

Oxytocin isn't responsible for opening the cervix. Estrogen does that. Oxytocin does not work for ob purposes, period, except in the presence of estrogen. Also, the estrogen level rises at calving, and decreases sharply after calving. Oxytocin is most effective immediately after calving, and ineffective 48 hours after calving. The only way oxytocin can be used effectively after 48 hours after calving is IF the cow is given a shot of estrogen. In my neck of the woods it's sold as "ECP" and lasts for about 7 days.

Please re -read what i wrote

Oxytocin started as soon as possible. Best effective within 48hrs.

Never quoted before hope i did it right.

And the advice of using Oxytocin for retained placenta (RP) is from our vet. She states that using it will help to keep the cervix open so that while dealing with RP there is less chance of bacteria settling in thus helping to decrease the risk of infection.
If a placenta hasn't shed by the sixth hour this is when we start Oxytocin treatment. 5cc to start and then 2 cc every 2 to 4 hours not ecceeding 4 doses in one day for two days. This is within the 48 hours of treatment oxytocin is viable
As well she recommends to use it after hard births including twins.
If our vet is wrong she would not be a vet very long in our area. and this advise is readily supplied in her calving check list that she puts out each year.

 

[milkmaid]

How well do you find the cephaolosporins work in the uterus? we use them on occasion for mastitis but they aren't my drug of choice.

For pyometra on cows more than 2-3 weeks post-partum, I've used Lutalyse (prostiglandins) or estrogen/oxytocin... but no intrauterine infusions of anything. Do you find that they are beneficial enough for established infections like that to use on a regular basis?

 

[cowvet]

How well do you find the cephaolosporins work in the uterus? we use them on occasion for mastitis but they aren't my drug of choice.

For pyometra on cows more than 2-3 weeks post-partum, I've used Lutalyse (prostiglandins) or estrogen/oxytocin... but no intrauterine infusions of anything. Do you find that they are beneficial enough for established infections like that to use on a regular basis?

I find they work extremely well (different bacteria to those causing mastitis). We have had some large trials done on "at risk" cows post calving - Metricure certainly has benefits. We are not allowed to use unregistered products if there is a registered product available for the job...

Most of my farmers will check their herds a couple of weeks prior to the start of mating and treat any with pus - sure many would self cure given time but we don't have a lot of that!!!
Keep in mind we are mostly pasture based/spring calving - with a 9 week calving period and a 12 month calendar we don't have much time to muck around.