GV Bulls question

[Prairiegrass]

I need to make a decision this week on keeping heifers and could use some help from the Gelbvieh breeders here. I use Gelbvieh to make cows,so I only use maternal GV bulls. I want cows moderately framed, no more than the Gelbvieh breed average for milk, must have good udders, feet and legs. I have used gelbvieh bulls on black and bwf cows for 13 years. I was keeping heifers out of a SelectSires bull Lchmn z138. Heifers had the right size, milk, udders, temperament – but needed more growth. Especially needed more growth out of his steers. Needing more growth, I started using Judd ranch bulls on my baldy cows. I have used Free Agent in the past and had good, not spectacular, results. I went to him not for calving ease, but the size is right, they have good temperaments, good mothers, good udders and the steers grow. They are a little short on milk as 2-3 year olds- about what I would expect from an EPD milk of 10. It’s also easier to have nice udders when you’re not milking. Hoping for more I went to TopSecret. Now I have some Top Secret daughters and I question whether I should keep them. They are in general a little bigger than the Free Agents, grow a little faster and while I thought I’d never say it, carry almost too much capacity for females. I’m willing to take a chance on a little more frame size and temper it with a smaller frame Angus bull. However, I am concerned they will milk even less than the Free Agents. The milk epds are the same, but with TopSecret being double bred Freedom I don’t see how I could get more milk. I have two good looking, very good growth Top Secret heifers out of solid EXT dams, but don’t want to make a 10 year mistake by keeping cows that won’t milk as well as the cows coming out of my Angus bulls (milk epds of 25-28). I know Judd Ranch has a good reputation, but wonder if I’m letting reputation and/or marketing cloud my common sense. I’d like to hear some honest civil opinions about this Free Agent/TopSecret maternal line, but I sure don’t want to rip anyone’s genetics. Any thoughts from others using this line? Thanks.

 

[Brandonm22]

This is not going to be much help; but you sound like you are far better informed than I (or almost anyone else) on the lines and sires you are considering. I trust your informed judgement more than I do my far lesser informed knowledge of Gelbvieh genetics. Go with your own best judgement in this and I think you will come out ahead. Dun and a couple of other posters are heavily involved in Gelbviehs and Gelbvieh crosses and they could be much more helpful; but seriously you have been picking heifers out of your herd for a while now and if you think a heifer will work in your program you are probably right. Likewise if you raised her and you think she won't work you are probably also the foremost authority here on your program and your herd and I am not arrogant enough to suggest that you are wrong either way.

 

[UG]

The folks at Judd Ranch have a wonderful reputation for being good folks to deal with. However, I have heard from many producers who have purchased bulls or females from Judds, that the cattle don't seem to work as well at their new homes as they did at Judd Ranch (weaning weights aren't as good, cows may not breed back as well, etc.). It is speculated by some that the Judd cattle are pampered quite a bit, which may explain why they have so many Dam's of Merit and why they have so many bull calves every year with HUGE weaning weights.

If carcass is important, Judds is probably not the place to go. For example, Free Agent has a Carcass Value EPD of -39.07, which puts him higher than the 95th percentile (breed average for CV is 1.61), so theoretically his calves on a carcass basis are worth $40.68 less than calves out of the average Gelbvieh bull for CV.

Though milking ability used to be one of the characteristics of the Gelbvieh breed, it seems that over the past 10 years some of the most popular bulls in the breed have been relatively poor milking which, has sometimes made it a bit difficult to find young sires with better milk scores.

Carolina Fortune cattle have good growth and his milk EPD is much higher than breed average, and possibly too high at 36, though I haven't heard any complaints that I can recall of poor udders or Fortune daughters having trouble breeding back. Another bull to consider is Bennett Ideal, who also has good growth and good (88 YW and 25 milk). The downsides with Ideal is that he is hetero black and polled and some of his calves can be a bit more flighty than their contemporaries so he needs to be bred to more gentle females. To get some growth back in your herd you may want to consider an old bull named Sherman Tank. He has a little more BW than some like but he'll take your herd up a notch in performance.

 

[Prairiegrass]

Thank you for the responses. I think a lot of breeders are at the stock show, because I thought I would see a few more responses. I agree not many Judd bulls have much for carcass quality. I am very picky with carcass on my Angus sires, but haven't been able to pull it off on the Gelbvieh side. I don't get paid for that now, but am trying to move the herd that direction. Carolina Fortune is about exactly what I am looking for - moderate size, good carcass, good disposition, good growth. My only concern is that high milk - concerned about the udder holding together. I like to get at least 9 years out of my cows and sold a 13 and 15 year old this winter so stay is important to me. I think I checked his recent stay numbers and they're going down. However, I appreciate your comments about not hearing anything bad about them, maybe if more people chime in I'll change my mind.
My spouse is an ex dairy farmer, and our cows get babied! If they can't perform here, they can't perform anywhere. The FA/TS calves grow well, it's just the cows don't produce as well as I'd like. Now, I've got some FreeAgents that are raising good calves as third calvers, but that tells me they weren't milking very well as younger cows. When my Angus 1-2 calf heifers are raising calves equal to or better than the same age Gelbvieh mothers, that tells me I can do better with my Gelbvieh genetics. Again, these TS/FA cows aren't bad, they're just herd average and from a ranch full of Dams of Merit I feel I should do better. My concern is that the TS will be worse mothers than the FA and question whether I should keep them.
Per your advice, I did look up Bennett Ideal and he does look good, although I couldn't find frame size data. However, not sure I want the temperment; maybe more people will weigh in on that. I think Freedom has been good for calving ease and growth, but his influence on carcass and milk production have hurt the breed. I don't think you need a cow to milk like a Holstein, but if you believe the across breed EPD data and add 7-10 # milk to the Gelbvieh # you get breed average (18) cow milking what's equal to an Angus milking 25-28#, and there's a lot of Gelbvieh bulls being sold out there with milk EPDs 10-13.
Well, if if more people don't weigh in with how fantastic their TS are, they're probably going to the sale barn.

 

[dun]

My one complaint about Gelbviehs is the carcass quality. I haven;t paid attention to Simmenthals in a few years but compared to them Gelbviehs had better udders. That may be because they used to (don;t know if the still do) have an udder score for the cows when the freshened. I think that made them pay more attewntion to udders then some of the other breeds.