GRASS QUESTION

[BC]

The problem with buying anything but triple 21 is you are buying sand. A ton of trip 21 is a ton of fertilizer anything else is cut with sand to get the ratio. I just get stuck on paying for sand when you are buying tons of fertilizer each year. I have been playing with liquids the last few years from a company named Miller with pretty good results. Jury is still out.[/quote]

I don't know about your area down in southeast Texas, but in the Tyler, Canton, Athens area we can get just about any blend we want. Most use ammonium nitrate (34-0-0) or sulfate (21-0-0 or urea (46-0-0) as a nitrogen source, Di-ammonium phosphate as the phosphorus source (18-46-0) and muriate of potash (0-0-60) as the source of potassium. The plants also use sul-po-mg (0-0-22 plus 22% sulfur and 11% magnesium).

My hat is off to you guys that have to raise cattle in that environment. High moisture grass, storms that blow in off the gulf and cover you with water and cows that have to be tough enough to fight off alligators and mosquitoes.

 

[3MR]

I dont understand the triple 21 staement either. Arent you paying more for fertilizer you dont need.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I would of never known all this. amazing what i've learned here. all very good advice. i'll be grazing not cutting hay as of now. So. i guess i need a soil sample first. than should i burn now than lime, than fertilize? or lime first? than burn closer to springthan fertilize there after? So i guess here comes a broadcaster for my the tractor I have burn one area and it seemed to knock back the sedge, don't know it the bermuda just choked it out or not but that work pretty good. But that area was a little lower than the rest. other areas i burnt a few times as i was just tired of bushooging it, and it didn't have much affect.

wrong time of the year to burn aleast in my area. you could wipe out a good stand of bermuda. like i said best time to burn is before green up while its dorment. is this common bermuda or coastal if its common i would notill some other variaty thats works good in that area cause that common is tough for cows too bite during summer months horses love it but my cows wait till it dorment to eat it in other word common bermuda if fine but i wouldnt want it as their only grazing source

 

[Caustic Burno]

Caustic,

Your sand statements confuse me. Last year I went with 22-10-10 with boron, manganese, copper and zinc added. I watched them mix it right out of the bins. No sand was added to anything. It all went into the hoppers and was weighed and loaded into the spreaders.

You know how much lime we get here. Our lime plants send it out left and right. We have too much lime in the soil.

Now soil tests tell me to go with 95-0-0 and no additives. No minerals - nothing. I just can't do that to the pastures. All you are doing is taking and not giving.

Here at the local co-op if you buythe ton to get a 21-10-10 they cut it with sand to get your ton to that pecentage .
A`ton of triple 21 is a ton of fertilizer. Are you sure you are not buying sand?

 

[backhoeboogie]

Here at the local co-op if you buythe ton to get a 21-10-10 they cut it with sand to get your ton to that pecentage .
A`ton of triple 21 is a ton of fertilizer. Are you sure you are not buying sand?

Yes I am sure. It is all pellets. They furnish the trailer and you hook up to it and drag it across your pastures and return it. They mix the loader buckets out of bins into a hopper and it goes through a mixer just like a concrete mixer. It is a custom mix right in front of you all the way down to the boron, manganese etc.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Caustic,

Your sand statements confuse me. Last year I went with 22-10-10 with boron, manganese, copper and zinc added. I watched them mix it right out of the bins. No sand was added to anything. It all went into the hoppers and was weighed and loaded into the spreaders.

You know how much lime we get here. Our lime plants send it out left and right. We have too much lime in the soil.

Now soil tests tell me to go with 95-0-0 and no additives. No minerals - nothing. I just can't do that to the pastures. All you are doing is taking and not giving.

not if your pastures has the other nutriants it needs. the soil test will tell you when you taking too much. now when you haying then your taking and after awile it will catch up with you but on grazing land its a recycle situation ad might not require all you think. thats were a grass farmer comes in handy any you fellers know were there is one :cboy:

 

[Caustic Burno]

Here at the local co-op if you buythe ton to get a 21-10-10 they cut it with sand to get your ton to that pecentage .
A`ton of triple 21 is a ton of fertilizer. Are you sure you are not buying sand?

Yes I am sure. It is all pellets. They furnish the trailer and you hook up to it and drag it across your pastures and return it. They mix the loader buckets out of bins into a hopper and it goes through a mixer just like a concrete mixer. It is a custom mix right in front of you all the way down to the boron, manganese etc.

Same way here Boogie better do the math in a ton of fertilizer how many pounds of N is there ? what is the rest of that ton filler my friend.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Here at the local co-op if you buythe ton to get a 21-10-10 they cut it with sand to get your ton to that pecentage .
A`ton of triple 21 is a ton of fertilizer. Are you sure you are not buying sand?

Yes I am sure. It is all pellets. They furnish the trailer and you hook up to it and drag it across your pastures and return it. They mix the loader buckets out of bins into a hopper and it goes through a mixer just like a concrete mixer. It is a custom mix right in front of you all the way down to the boron, manganese etc.

Same way here Boogie better do the math in a ton of fertilizer how many pounds of N is there ? what is the rest of that ton filler my friend.

There must be some kind of pellet filler then. It is not sand

 

[dun]

There must be some kind of pellet filler then. It is not sand

The stuff we get here is all pelletized and the pellet containes an amount of filler material. Frnstance 300 lbs of N is really 100 lbs of actaul N, etc. If I tried to spread by the actual weight I don;t think the stuff would spread. 15 lbs of N, 23 lbs of P and 10 lbs of K per acre would be awfully hard to get to meter uniformly.

dun

 

[backhoeboogie]

Caustic,

Your sand statements confuse me. Last year I went with 22-10-10 with boron, manganese, copper and zinc added. I watched them mix it right out of the bins. No sand was added to anything. It all went into the hoppers and was weighed and loaded into the spreaders.

You know how much lime we get here. Our lime plants send it out left and right. We have too much lime in the soil.

Now soil tests tell me to go with 95-0-0 and no additives. No minerals - nothing. I just can't do that to the pastures. All you are doing is taking and not giving.

not if your pastures has the other nutriants it needs. the soil test will tell you when you taking too much. now when you haying then your taking and after awile it will catch up with you but on grazing land its a recycle situation ad might not require all you think. thats were a grass farmer comes in handy any you fellers know were there is one :cboy:

These are hay fields. Occasionally they get cattle on them after a cutting just to clean up the fence lines and such, but as a rule cows are not on them.

EVery time I take the A & M soil tests results to my fertilizer guy, the old man just shakes his head. I go with his judgement. He's an old timer that knows every old farm in this area. Trace minerals are cheap and I add them just because.

 

[3MR]

There must be some kind of pellet filler then. It is not sand

The stuff we get here is all pelletized and the pellet containes an amount of filler material. Frnstance 300 lbs of N is really 100 lbs of actaul N, etc. If I tried to spread by the actual weight I don;t think the stuff would spread. 15 lbs of N, 23 lbs of P and 10 lbs of K per acre would be awfully hard to get to meter uniformly.

dun

Exactly; why would anybody want to pay for N,P or K they dont need when they could pay less for filler.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Last year 22-10-10 was something like $315 per ton with the trace minerals added. I was satisfied with the results, just not happy with the prices. Wonder what it will be this year? I will need another 21 tons and that is a lot of nickels.

Thanks for splaining it dun. Guess I have never experienced the sand filler.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

around here they use crushed limestone as the filler.

 

[Double A Ranch]

Here at the local co-op if you buythe ton to get a 21-10-10 they cut it with sand to get your ton to that pecentage .
A`ton of triple 21 is a ton of fertilizer. Are you sure you are not buying sand?

Yes I am sure. It is all pellets. They furnish the trailer and you hook up to it and drag it across your pastures and return it. They mix the loader buckets out of bins into a hopper and it goes through a mixer just like a concrete mixer. It is a custom mix right in front of you all the way down to the boron, manganese etc.

Same way here Boogie better do the math in a ton of fertilizer how many pounds of N is there ? what is the rest of that ton filler my friend.

I guess Im a littel confused. My hubby does the fertilizer figuring but I thought the numbers were percentages? Like 21-10-10 is 21% nitrogen, so 21-21-21 would also be 21% nitrogen but with higher percentages phosphate & potash right? My confusion is that neither one equals 100% so the 21-21-21 would also have something added? Sand?

 

[john250]

There is no sand at my suppliers.
Miurate of potash is extracted from ore using Hydrochloric acid. It tests 60-61% K2O. The rest is chlorine from the HCL acid. And other impurities.
To call the impurities "sand" implies that sellers are adding back sand, in my mind.
If a soil test and recommendation calls for 100 lb of potash, you have to buy 167 lb of 0-0-60 to meet the recommendation.
1/.60=1.67
Some crops are sensitive to the chlorine in this mix. Tobacco is one. Then you use sulfate of potash. 0-0-50. They use big evaporators out in the Great Salt Lake to produce it. Pricey$ Sulfur is one of the impurities in that.
Someone else can explain phosphate and Nitrogen.

 

[BC]

There is no sand at my suppliers.
Miurate of potash is extracted from ore using Hydrochloric acid. It tests 60-61% K2O. The rest is chlorine from the HCL acid. And other impurities.
To call the impurities "sand" implies that sellers are adding back sand, in my mind.
If a soil test and recommendation calls for 100 lb of potash, you have to buy 167 lb of 0-0-60 to meet the recommendation.
1/.60=1.67
Some crops are sensitive to the chlorine in this mix. Tobacco is one. Then you use sulfate of potash. 0-0-50. They use big evaporators out in the Great Salt Lake to produce it. Pricey$ Sulfur is one of the impurities in that.
Someone else can explain phosphate and Nitrogen.

We get nitrogen from several different sources - ammonium nitrate is 34% N (34-0-0), ammonium sulfate is 21% N (21-0-0), urea is 46% N (46-0-0), diammonium phosphate 18% N (18-46-0) and anhydrous ammonia 81% N (81-0-0). None of those sources is 100% pure fertilizer. All have something to bind or hold the nutrients so that it can be spread.

Diammonium phosphate (18-46-0) is the primary source of phosphorus. It provides 46 lbs of P for every 100 lbs used in a blend (also provides 18 lbs of N) There is still 36 lbs of inert material to help hold the nutrients.

Even the 21-21-21 that Cuastic mentioned has filler as a 100 lbs of it would yield 21 lbs of N, 21 lbs of P and 21 lbs of K, the rest is inert materials.

 

[Caustic Burno]

There is no sand at my suppliers.
Miurate of potash is extracted from ore using Hydrochloric acid. It tests 60-61% K2O. The rest is chlorine from the HCL acid. And other impurities.
To call the impurities "sand" implies that sellers are adding back sand, in my mind.
If a soil test and recommendation calls for 100 lb of potash, you have to buy 167 lb of 0-0-60 to meet the recommendation.
1/.60=1.67
Some crops are sensitive to the chlorine in this mix. Tobacco is one. Then you use sulfate of potash. 0-0-50. They use big evaporators out in the Great Salt Lake to produce it. Pricey$ Sulfur is one of the impurities in that.
Someone else can explain phosphate and Nitrogen.

We get nitrogen from several different sources - ammonium nitrate is 34% N (34-0-0), ammonium sulfate is 21% N (21-0-0), urea is 46% N (46-0-0), diammonium phosphate 18% N (18-46-0) and anhydrous ammonia 81% N (81-0-0). None of those sources is 100% pure fertilizer. All have something to bind or hold the nutrients so that it can be spread.

Diammonium phosphate (18-46-0) is the primary source of phosphorus. It provides 46 lbs of P for every 100 lbs used in a blend (also provides 18 lbs of N) There is still 36 lbs of inert material to help hold the nutrients.

Even the 21-21-21 that Cuastic mentioned has filler as a 100 lbs of it would yield 21 lbs of N, 21 lbs of P and 21 lbs of K, the rest is inert materials.

You are absolutely right you just have to decide what you want to buy, I will continue to use trip 21 because I get 63 pounds of fertilize on the 100 not 40 or 50 pounds.
Like I said I don't like buying sand.
The thing that amazes me on this thread is the people that didn't know they were buying filler.

 

[jnowack]

http://www.noble.org/ag/Forage/SmartFer ... index.html

 

[Caustic Burno]

The biggest thing people are forgeting is ph if the ph goes under 6 your fertilizer efficiency goes to almost nothing something like 15%. I would have to look it up again to like 85% efficient at a ph of 6,5.
I test every year and every year I need all 3 elements plus lime.
This is due to having a lot of bottom land and heavy rainfall, too much water on the fields.
The ph problem is from pine plantations.

 

[BC]

Just curious, but after several years of applying 21-21-21 are you starting to see some residual phosphorus? Too much P can be a bad thing also. It will tie up other nutrients. By the way, what does your pH normally run?

You were correct in the fact that low pH affects fertilizer utilization. I read somewhere that a pH as low as 5.3 will only be 65% efficient. In other words 35% of the fertilizer is not available for the plant to use.