Hereford76, it took me a while to understand, but thanks and apology accepted, no hard feelings, I too got worked up a bit, not only by your post but also the satire before that from someone I used to have alot of respect for.
Lets just look at my comment that started all this, maybe I should elaborate so that you can try and understand what I was trying to say.
I like this type better,
This looks more like the easy doing type under tough conditions than the other bull Aaron had posted on that same day. Off course that is my opinion of what I believe a hereford should be first and formost, very few of my fellow breeders in the same area I farm in even agree with me on this.
and his dam is also the better cow of the two posted,
The 11 year old dam of this bull is a proven cow and she has held up very well, looks structurally sound and phenotypically better than the dam of the other bull posted by Aaron on another thread.
but unfortunately he also has the same sire with all the same faults.
I see the same faults the sire has in both the bulls posted. I have no idea who bred the sire or even who he is, but in these two threads its clear as daylight that he doesn't improve or even maintain the structure the cows have in his progeny.(if i remember right aaron said something like he takes back any praise he had spoke on behalf of the breeder of the sire of the two bull calves he posted - i just figured aaron already knew that) Maybe I'm overly critical when it comes to soundness, but it has helped me not to ever make excuses for my bulls at their new homes. I also believe that there should be a bigger difference between registered stock and the run of the mill commercial stock than simply a paper issued by the breed association. Before I get misquoted again, I'm merely trying to say that certain faults that isn't threatening to shorten the productive life of the commercial animal can be tolerated to a certain extent while striving for improvement in commercial herds while those same faults simply cannot be tolerated in registered cattle.
I really think that you must either AI or invest in a better herdsire if you want to be taken seriously in the seedstock business.
I think this is the part that got Hereford76 worked up (yes it was), maybe I was blunt and untactfull, but it was honest advice given with the best intentions. I don't see the sire of these two bullcalves as a bull that will take Aaron's breeding program forward. That is my opinion and I stand by it, I've written it here and I'll say that to Aaron in person if I ever get the opportunity to meet him.
if you had said aaron i don't see this sire taking your breeding program forward i probably never would have even chimed in
I'm sure Aaron knows that once you've got a name for selling what you do its just about impossible to convince the potential customer base that you've improved in the meantime or have made a change in direction. I am not saying that he sells substandard animals or have sold substandard animals in the past or that he should develop his bulls in a different way, I am merely saying that this herdsire won't do his reputation any good and he'd be better off as a young breeder to either AI or upgrade his herdsire.
Hereford76, if you think i'm wrong you're welcome to disagree with me, but to throw a few low punches for the sake of doing so usually achieves very little
I don't mean to be a wise-ass, but i have a feeling if those north country guys were looking a pictures of critters on this site they would probably tell Kernsie would be the person who needs to do some AI if he wanted to be taken serious as a breeder. well i know this is the comment that got you worked up and as i said before i made it merely to make a point... not everything you or i breed for,etc are valued the same all over the world - i have a customer that wants the rankest sharp horned bull i got simply to keep the indians charolais bulls off his cows
Other than telling people to go and study the history of the breed to understand why herefords became popular in the first place I don't think I've ever told anyone to change the type he breeds to try and copy mine. I am by no means an industry leader here, I am just not that much into showing or the type of animals that would typically dominate shows here, but I have a steady customer base (ditto)and more and more established breeders are taking note of my cattle. So for now I'm happy that I've been taken seriously enough.
Your "cheap" commercial bull looks like he would have a difficult time covering big, tuff country.
Country don't get much tougher than where most of the bulls I've sold have to work. Our stocking rate on natural veld is about 70 acres per head, we get about 10" of rain per year so water is sparse to put it mildly, there is no harvest rests or grain stubble to graze on, we simply don't get enough rain to plant any winter annuals succesfully without irrigation. While I'm sure we can't compare to the prairies cattle have to be able to walk here to survive, leave alone thrive.most of my bulls get dumped where it takes 100 acres to summer a cow and they talk in townships not acres and the lucky ones get to go to the blackfoot reserve on the front. it only takes 7 inches during the growing season to have a decent year. but to me the biggest difference is the winters - the temp guage on this property has recorded the lowest ever in the lower US. i live in the only county in the US that has ever seen a d5 drougth that was centered on my doorstep and where the 30 year norm is only 8 to begin with and i have lived through two of them... and I guess that is why i get so worked up about things
As for the horned vs poll debate
I don't want to speak on behalf of Rocket2222, but his comment was made tongue in the cheek.
My opinion is that as long as its a hereford and not an angus I don't care whether you have horns, train them with weights, train them by rasping them, cut them off with a pair of loppers, dehorn them with a hot iron when young or even go over to the darkside and use poll bulls, horns don't determine the quality of the animal, nor does it determine the milking ability, fleshing ability, the amount of bone or ruggedness of the animal. The (in)ability of breeders is what ultimately determines that.
I am fed up with horned breeders running poll animals down simply because they don't have horns, the days when poll animals were of lower quality because the smaller genepool are long gone. I am equally fed up with poll breeders telling those who breed traditional type horned animals that they have been left behind by technology and that they are behind times. As long as we have all this infighting the greater hereford breed is losing marketshare against angus, its just plain silly.
I breed poll animals because that is what my market demands, no other reason.
