Good 3 way cross?

[Lazy M]

Considering ai'ing a group of simangus cows to a Hereford (I'm using ABS-any sire suggestions appreciated). The cows should be about 1/3 sim and 2/3 black angus. These are big framed, pretty heavy milking cows. My reasoning is that:
1. I think that this would be a good cross for replacements if I use a moderately framed avg milk-value bull.
2. I'll be using a black angus for cleanup so I'll be able to tell if the ai took.
3. Should get some heterosis value
What do you think?

 

[bball]

I like reasons 2 and 3.. everything I have read and been 'schooled' on says 3waycross are not your 'ideal' replacements. 50/50 cross F1s. However, recent post on here debated the financial efficacy of cost of F1's vs. their finanacial productivity..so I may be all wet.

 

[Jabes0623]

Sounds like a winner to me. I like the idea of a 3way cross & have been batting around the idea of doing something very similar myself except with Balancers instead of SimAngus. Like you my main concern is with keeping replacements, I just don't want to have to constantly go out of house for my genetics. If you do attempt this please keep us updated with your results.

Just to throw another option at you, in my research I found a farm who was using SimAngus x Balancer with very good results. Obviously you get the 3way cross, though you do lose some heterosis, but you can keep your herd 50/50 English/Continental, you get black hides, & you get consistency in your calves becasue Sim & Gelv are very similar in terms of appearance.

 

[Stocker Steve]

When we tried that we got some great steers with a lot of bone, but very few heifer calves. :(
The heifers we got tended to be large. It seems like there is not much frame moderation out there with Herefords.

 

[dun]

We've used R294 a lot on our Red Angus/Flekvieh and Red Angus/Gelbvieh cows. The Resulting cows have been very good and raise some dandy calves when bred back to Red Angus.

 

[Son of Butch]

When we tried that we got some great steers with a lot of bone, but very few heifer calves. :(
The heifers we got tended to be large. It seems like there is not much frame moderation out there with Herefords.

I don't know how good he is, but EFBEEF Tested is a 4.4 frame Hereford sire with a lot of good numbers at Select.
http://www.selectsiresbeef.com/index.ph ... d=Hereford

 

[Lazy M]

We've used R294 a lot on our Red Angus/Flekvieh and Red Angus/Gelbvieh cows. The Resulting cows have been very good and raise some dandy calves when bred back to Red Angus.

Good to know. That's the bull I was leaning towards

 

[Lazy M]

Sounds like a winner to me. I like the idea of a 3way cross & have been batting around the idea of doing something very similar myself except with Balancers instead of SimAngus. Like you my main concern is with keeping replacements, I just don't want to have to constantly go out of house for my genetics. If you do attempt this please keep us updated with your results.

Just to throw another option at you, in my research I found a farm who was using SimAngus x Balancer with very good results. Obviously you get the 3way cross, though you do lose some heterosis, but you can keep your herd 50/50 English/Continental, you get black hides, & you get consistency in your calves becasue Sim & Gelv are very similar in terms of appearance.

Considered Gelb but didn't find any sires through ABS that suited me. The tech I'm using is an ABS dealer

 

[Lazy M]

Sounds like a winner to me. I like the idea of a 3way cross & have been batting around the idea of doing something very similar myself except with Balancers instead of SimAngus. Like you my main concern is with keeping replacements, I just don't want to have to constantly go out of house for my genetics. If you do attempt this please keep us updated with your results.

Just to throw another option at you, in my research I found a farm who was using SimAngus x Balancer with very good results. Obviously you get the 3way cross, though you do lose some heterosis, but you can keep your herd 50/50 English/Continental, you get black hides, & you get consistency in your calves becasue Sim & Gelv are very similar in terms of appearance.

Considered Gelb but didn't find any sires through ABS that suited me. The tech I'm using is an ABS dealer

Plus I like that with hereford ai and an angus cleanup, it will be very apparent which ai took.

 

[Gators Rule]

Considering ai'ing a group of simangus cows to a Hereford (I'm using ABS-any sire suggestions appreciated). The cows should be about 1/3 sim and 2/3 black angus. These are big framed, pretty heavy milking cows. My reasoning is that:
1. I think that this would be a good cross for replacements if I use a moderately framed avg milk-value bull.
2. I'll be using a black angus for cleanup so I'll be able to tell if the ai took.
3. Should get some heterosis value
What do you think?

The general school of thought that I have been taught is that we breed for commercial F1 replacements....and the third cross is for the market. If I were breeding these SimAngus cows for replacements, I would keep them with either an Angus or Simmental (or SimAngus) low to moderate milking bull. I love your threeway cross idea, but if maximizing hybrid vigor, I would keep those resulting calves for the market. JMO

 

[Stocker Steve]

The general school of thought that I have been taught is that we breed for commercial F1 replacements....and the third cross is for the market.

Is a 2 way cross female replacement optimal, or is a 3 way cross just considered too complicated for commercial producers?

 

[Son of Butch]

Yes, 2 way cross (F1) female is optimum and breeding f1s to a 3rd purebred for a 3 way cross produces optimum terminals.

 

[bball]

Yes, 2 way cross (F1) female is optimum and breeding f1s to a 3rd purebred for a 3 way cross produces optimum terminals.

Bought as best a way to sum it all up as I have read on here.

 

[Bestoutwest]

Yes, 2 way cross (F1) female is optimum and breeding f1s to a 3rd purebred for a 3 way cross produces optimum terminals.

OK, so question. When you're looking to get some replacements from the F1's, which direction do you look? Do you use a bull that is a purebred from the cross you have (ie Angus x Hereford) giving you a 75/25% or do you go for a 3 way cross giving you a 50/25/25%? Or do you look for another bull that is F1 from what you have, or look to another herd running what you have?

Thanks

 

[Son of Butch]

Yes, 2 way cross (F1) female is optimum and breeding f1s to a 3rd purebred for a 3 way cross produces optimum terminals.

OK, so question. When you're looking to get some replacements from the F1's, which direction do you look? Do you use a bull that is a purebred from the cross you have (ie Angus x Hereford) giving you a 75/25% or do you go for a 3 way cross giving you a 50/25/25%? Or do you look for another bull that is F1 from what you have, or look to another herd running what you have?

Thanks

For optimum results you don't keep replacements from f1s you purchase more f1s.
In most real world situations owners will rotate a 2 breed cross 75/25% then next generation switch = 62.5/37.5%
Using same cross f1 bull on f1 females does not produce same hybrid vigor as a true f1 but 50/50 balance is maintained
and slightly more uniform results would be expected than a 2 breed rotation.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Yes, 2 way cross (F1) female is optimum and breeding f1s to a 3rd purebred for a 3 way cross produces optimum terminals.

OK, so question. When you're looking to get some replacements from the F1's, which direction do you look? Do you use a bull that is a purebred from the cross you have (ie Angus x Hereford) giving you a 75/25% or do you go for a 3 way cross giving you a 50/25/25%? Or do you look for another bull that is F1 from what you have, or look to another herd running what you have?

Thanks

While I think most guys do it the way you're describing (75/25's), I always thought the best answer was to keep back some cows out of your base genetics to make your own F1s.

Meaning, if you were starting with Angus cows and were wanting to use Herefords to create F1s to use in a terminal system, it'd go something like this:

Top 1/3 of the Angus Cows get AI'd to an Angus Bull (ideally sexed semen so you're not wasting time with bull calves if you're needing replacements) to make your replacement Angus females
Bottom 2/3 of the Angus Cows get AI'd to a Hereford Bull (ideally sexed semen for the same reason as above) for replacements for the F1 herd
All F1s are AI'd to a "Terminal Bull" (ideally with sexed semen as steers are worth more than heifers) and then a Terminal Bull (same or different breed) runs clean-up over everyone ... and ... the terminal bull is also running clean-up on the Angus Cows (all resulting calves from Angus x. Terminal are also terminal, or are possibly the heifers from this cross could be sold to someone else who is running a similar three way cross system where your "Terminal" breed is one of their two main breeds in their cow composition)

 

[dun]

The way we "usually" do it. Is use some of the purebreds crossed to make F1s, some of the F1's we breed to a third breed for either terminal or replacements. The replacments from that cross go back to the base breed again. This year even with calving spread out over 45 days there was only 10 lbs difference between the heaviest and lightest. That was from pure, F1s and 3 way crosses. That's pretty much the way it has always worked out for us, although some years the range is a little greater. Oh yeah, that included first calvers, and heifer and steer calves.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Can you get reliable results using sexed semen?

 

[Jabes0623]

I apologize if my question is considered hijacking the OP's thread but I've seen it brought up here & it got me to wondering.

What makes an F1 cow superior to a cow thats a 2nd or 3rd generation crossbred cow?

 

[Rafter S]

I apologize if my question is considered hijacking the OP's thread but I've seen it brought up here & it got me to wondering.

What makes an F1 cow superior to a cow thats a 2nd or 3rd generation crossbred cow?

You get the greatest amount of heterosis (hybrid vigor) from the first generation cross. The heterosis is diminished with each succeeding cross. And incidentally, heterosis is greatest when there's a large difference in the breeds used. That's why it's so strong when British or Continental breeds are crossed with Brahmans. Not only are they different breeds, they're different species (bos Taurus and bos indicus).