Getting back into the cattle business... advice?

[dixiedrifter]

Back in the mid 90's my grandfather was diagnosed with a brain tumor and was forced to liquidate his herd of polled Herefords as the fences were going down and they were simply too much to take care of, he would not let me do anything with them nor make any improvements to the farm, plus the market was in the dumps. Fast forward to today, I now have the farm, everything has grown up, the cattle market is red hot compared to what it used to be and I'm looking to get back into business. Basically I'm having to start almost from scratch. Luckily I have a decent tractor (Kubota M9000) but no hay equipment other than a v-rake. The fences rows have grown up and everything is a mess but at least I have managed to keep the pastures mowed over the years and the woods beat back.

Anyways I'm looking for some advice on how to get started. Should have my first pasture fenced off by the end of this month (16 acres down, 47 more to go, and 30+ acres to clear). Done sold all my hay so I won't be able to purchase anything till this spring after the grass comes out. The plan is to get a microloan from the USDA which appears to be a go... will get ~2.5% interest rate and 18 months before I have to make my first payment plus I'm cutting some timber. Also I'm going to take the advanced master beef producer course from the University of Tennessee so I can get up to date on current production and management methods. However that won't be rolling around until next spring either from what I gather.

So I guess the question is what should I purchase? I am in Tennessee if that matters and am considering going with Santa Gertrudis. Don't like black Angus as my experience with them they tend to be "wild", nervous, flighty, and semi-aggressive. Should I go with bred cows, bred heifers, or weaned calves? My goal is to get as many "heads, tails, and poop holes" as quickly as I can then start culling, but at the same time I want to get out from under that loan as quickly as possible without having to start making regular payments. I have access to a bull through a friend of mine but I'm interested in AI as that would eliminate a lot of headache with rotating stock to prevent inbreeding. What would you do if you were in my position?

 

[dun]

During the down time before you get the cattle, I would do several things. Attend an AI class, determine what kinds of grasses/forages you have, establish a relationship with a good large animal vet and work at setting up your pastures for rotational grazing. That would include fencing and water development so that you can use temp hotwire for splitting the pastures into managable grazing areas and still provide water easily. Also learn as much as you can about MIG (rotational grazing) and get the fertility of your pastures up to snuff. If your pastures are fescue, overseed them with clover. The clover serves 2 purposes, it dilutes the intake of endophyte in the fescue and also will help with the nitrogen in the soil. That should keep you pretty well busy during the winter and early spring.
For starters I would go with stockers and transition into cow calf. There is tons of information on these boards about deciding what type/breeds of cattle you should raise.

 

[kickinbull]

Very good advice from Dun. Get your perimeter fence in order. Buy supplies you'll need to set up rotational grazing. Get soil tested this fall. Spend some spare time this winter online researching grazing. There is a wealth of very good info. Patience is key. Right now EVERYONE wants in the cattle business. Even bottle calves are bringing $3-500 here. Set you timber money aside, use it to purchase what ever kind of cows you decide. That way, all the money you recieve is yours when you sell. If you want to work for banker, go get a job at one. Good luck.KB

 

[bse]

Don't like black Angus as my experience with them they tend to be "wild", nervous, flighty, and semi-aggressive. Says from your experience you find Angus to be this way, that can be with any breed. I had a few Gerts years ago, had to quit them couldnt take the hits at the salebarn and thats in TN. So maybe look at what will sell for you, the cow calf guy seems to be doing ok right now.
Along with what Dun said id get some type handling system set up before i bought my first animal. if your going to AI and things it will make it so much easier.

 

[kickinbull]

I forgot, but what bse said about handling system, X 100.

 

[Larbo]

Find a local succesfull cattleman that you can work with as much as possible. Most everybody can use help and you will learn the do's and dont's. Don't skimp on handling facilities, its the difference between enjoying working cattle or dreading it. I'd put the AIing on the back burner for now, you have many other things to focus on. GOOD LUCK

 

[dixiedrifter]

I've actually been working on the pastures for the last couple years. The area I'm fencing was seriously grown up with blackberry patches and sweet gum/persimmon/sumac saplings when I first started a couple years ago. Gave it a good bush hogging then been haying it in the sping and fall for the last couple years and that has pretty much gotten rid of the worst of it. Biggest problem right now are mixed broadleaf weeds that I don't know how to identify and broomsedge. Most of the other grasses are "naturalized" toxic fescue that has been there 30+ years, wild/common bermuda, and a bunch of lezpedeza. Almost hate to hit it 2,4-d to get rid of the broadleaf weeds and then go back over it with seed but it really needs to have a disc ran and cultipacker ran over it as there are some rough spots that will about throw you out of the tractor seat when mowing. Have not done a soil test but I'm sure it needs lime bad... at least 2 tons to the acre as surrounding fields soil tests have shown when I first started renovating. Anyways the best thing I have found for seeding is to go get the local ag extension service drill. Its a big John Deere no till thing (model number I can't remember) but it has a clover box on it and will handle everything from soybeans to bermudagrass. Cost is $10 an acre to rent it... well worth the money IMO. Planning on running over it around the first of March with some Durana/Patriot clover and throwing the phosphate/potash to it.

As far as finding someone to work with, I got a few people in my area that are friendly enough, but ironically my next door neighbor across the road is (to use a term I heard on this forum on another thread) the "ring hooker" of the area. Might as well be a legal cattle rustler. Not only that my other next door neighbor down the road is a vet.

When it comes to handling facilities I kept my old portable corral. Probably going to give it a new coat of paint but other than that it is pretty much ready to go. May build some fixed corrals using cattle panels and cedar posts. Luckily I have a ton of those at my disposal and my friend whom I am working with has a portable band saw so I can cut the "white" off the ouside. Makes a big difference in how long they last IMO as the white will start to rot away long before the red will causing the posts to become wobbly in the ground. I also plan on building me a heavy duty wooden loading chute and I have a headgate to put on the end. Will probably use oak for that. I can use the local extension office's portable squeeze chute for free too if need be.

Water supply is going to be a problem though in the one field I'm working on. I will probably dig a new pond as my friend also owns a track hoe and D6 dozer. Not only that the government will pay 90% of the cost of putting it in so essentially it will be free by the time it is all said and done. All my other pastures/hay fields already have ponds on them. As far as cross fencing goes, well the government will supposedly pay 50% of the cost so I might just do steel posts/barbed wire but it would be a pain to mow around. I think I will just keep a low stocking density for the first year or so then just keep it clipped.

 

[ohiobeef]

If you're going with "red" cattle, why not go back to Herefords ? The majority have a good disposition& they grow very well. Good luck.

 

[dixiedrifter]

If you're going with "red" cattle, why not go back to Herefords ? The majority have a good disposition& they grow very well. Good luck.

Most Herefords are definitely laid back. Used to have a bull that the only way you could load him was to get up in the trailer with an ear of corn and he would follow you in.

The problem is that they never seemed to want to bring as much as an angus or black baldy at the sale barn. Used to be black angus cows with a herefored bull was the way to go as the angus cows supposedly gave more milk than a hereford from what I understand plus you got hat hybrid vigor thing. Only other real problem with herefords is that they had a tendency to get pinkeye a lot and the one's without the red pigment around their eyes were the worst.

 

[highgrit]

This is probably wrong but I feel pink eye has a lot to do with the way you manage your cow herd.
We fight flys from spring till winter and don't like seeing flys on the cattle. And so far no pink eye troubles yet. Might just be lucky IDK.

 

[denvermartinfarms]

I would look for some good milky Herefords and run a brangus or angus bull with them. You can do things to avoid the eye problems people accociate with the breed. That's what I would do if I was stuck on having cows that all looked alike. Personally I care more about having the best cows I can that make money regardless of color and breed.

 

[Rafter S]

You mentioned a headgate at the end of your chute. I'm not clear on if that's a loading chute or working chute. One chute often serves both purposes, but I wanted to mention that I hate loading cattle through a headgate or squeeze chute. They really get in the way when you follow the cattle through the chute and try to close the trailer. A separate working chute, that opens back into the working pens, is definitely something to think about.

 

[Toad]

I would look for some good milky Herefords and run a brangus or angus bull with them. You can do things to avoid the eye problems people accociate with the breed. That's what I would do if I was stuck on having cows that all looked alike. Personally I care more about having the best cows I can that make money regardless of color and breed.

I agree, I'm still small enough I just sell small lots through the local sale barn. I have several different breeds based on what cows I could pick up for a good price. You can make money off of all of them unless you are looking at selling as a group. My personal opinion for here in the east is that almost anything sells well if the sire is a good black angus.
My experience with pink eye also seems to be based more on management then anything. Vaccinating seemed to help a lot here. My herefords havent shown any more inclination for pink eye then my simangus. I

 

[denvermartinfarms]

I would look for some good milky Herefords and run a brangus or angus bull with them. You can do things to avoid the eye problems people accociate with the breed. That's what I would do if I was stuck on having cows that all looked alike. Personally I care more about having the best cows I can that make money regardless of color and breed.

I agree, I'm still small enough I just sell small lots through the local sale barn. I have several different breeds based on what cows I could pick up for a good price. You can make money off of all of them unless you are looking at selling as a group. My personal opinion for here in the east is that almost anything sells well if the sire is a good black angus.
My experience with pink eye also seems to be based more on management then anything. Vaccinating seemed to help a lot here. My herefords havent shown any more inclination for pink eye then my simangus. I

I agree, I have no more eye problems with my Hereford cows or in Hereford calves I buy to feed than any other breeds. keeping pastures cut and flies controlled will make a big deifference in eye problems.

 

[herofan]

This is a good question; I'm not too far ahead of the OP myself. What do you recommend on buying equipment? Is it worth it to purchase hay equipment right away, or hire it done for a few years? Of course, with a farm, there is all kinds of equipment that would be handy, a manure spreader, seed sewer, you name it. Should a newbie wait a while on this stuff?

 

[denvermartinfarms]

This is a good question; I'm not too far ahead of the OP myself. What do you recommend on buying equipment? Is it worth it to purchase hay equipment right away, or hire it done for a few years? Of course, with a farm, there is all kinds of equipment that would be handy, a manure spreader, seed sewer, you name it. Should a newbie wait a while on this stuff?

Yes, I think you should wait. It takes a special situation or feeding atleast a couple hundred bales a year to buy hay equipment, and even then it's not always best. I believe land and cattle need to be number 1 and then everything else. If your to the point you want to be on the size if your operation then go ahead and start buying equipment and working on facilities as you can do so with cash.

 

[Rafter S]

This is a good question; I'm not too far ahead of the OP myself. What do you recommend on buying equipment? Is it worth it to purchase hay equipment right away, or hire it done for a few years? Of course, with a farm, there is all kinds of equipment that would be handy, a manure spreader, seed sewer, you name it. Should a newbie wait a while on this stuff?

Yes, I think you should wait. It takes a special situation or feeding atleast a couple hundred bales a year to buy hay equipment, and even then it's not always best. I believe land and cattle need to be number 1 and then everything else. If your to the point you want to be on the size if your operation then go ahead and start buying equipment and working on facilities as you can do so with cash.

I agree. I do put up 150 - 200 rolls per year, and I wouldn't dream of trying to do it with my own equipment. Unless there just isn't anyone in your area who does custom hay work I'd suggest only getting the minimum amount of equipment you can get by with.

I especially agree with denvermartinfarms about doing your expanding with cash. Although the last couple of years have been better, it's usually hard enough to make money for yourself in the cattle business, without trying to make money for yourself and the bank.

 

[dixiedrifter]

This is a good question; I'm not too far ahead of the OP myself. What do you recommend on buying equipment? Is it worth it to purchase hay equipment right away, or hire it done for a few years? Of course, with a farm, there is all kinds of equipment that would be handy, a manure spreader, seed sewer, you name it. Should a newbie wait a while on this stuff?

Yes, I think you should wait. It takes a special situation or feeding atleast a couple hundred bales a year to buy hay equipment, and even then it's not always best. I believe land and cattle need to be number 1 and then everything else. If your to the point you want to be on the size if your operation then go ahead and start buying equipment and working on facilities as you can do so with cash.

The main thing is you don't have to have a $8,000 disc mower or a $15,000 round baler. My partner's Vermeer 604G caught on fire this year and burned in my field. They lucked out and snagged a 605 or 604G baler in better shape than the one they had for $2,000 and put up 100+ 5x6 rolls with it. Their cutter is an old yellow jacket 6 rotor that is older than the hills and the bar is so pitted from rust that you have to stop every so often and top it off with gear oil. JB weld is the only thing keeping it alive. Right now I'm looking at a New Holland 853 chain baler for $1,200... if the air bags are good and not leaking it would be well worth the money IMO. Of course the bales they produce look like tires that someone has let the air out of 5 minutes after they hit the ground but if you stack them up with a FEL and tarp them or have a shed to put them under they do just as good as a tight packed bale from a belt baler. As far as other stuff goes I can rent a drill a whole lot cheaper than I could ever buy one. The only piece of equipment I'd like to get my hands on is a good cultipacker which is critical to getting a nice smooth seed bed. I can literally rake in 3rd high at 15 miles an hour on their bermuda fields with my V-rake and my butt will never leave the seat from bouncing.

Anyhoos right now I'm doing my hay on the halves but if I were to have my own equipment I could run a lot more cows as I would have more available forage to get them through the winter. the main advantage of having your own hay equipment is you don't have to wait for someone to come and bale yours up. Rain free windows in the spring time can be few and far between and when the grass is ready to be cut it is ready to be cut as the quality starts to go downhill rapidly the closer it gets to June here in Tennessee.

 

[denvermartinfarms]

In always in your side of the equipment thing, I like owning everything doing everything I need done myself. I always did my own hay until I sold my equipment in the spring to buy more cows. Still glad I did that but I promise you I will have hay equipment by next season.

Sounds like once you get everything cleared you will have about 93 acres in grass, with that you will be able to run about 40 pair at the most, If you didn't make your hay and pastured the whole place. Looks like about 75 acres for cows and running 25 to 30 pair and cutting hay on about 18 acres to feed them is the best Balance you can get if you want to make your hay.

 

[highgrit]

Break that 93 acres into about 20 - 4 1/2 acre paddocks. You can carry a third more cows per acre, and cut hay off it also. Rotational grazing works good if you work at it.