freemartin test
- Thread starter Poundsy
- Start date
Help Support CattleToday:
This is who we used when we had it done years ago. Cost is now 50 bucks http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/cattle.php
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
If she is breeding age, a vet can tell you if she is "playing with full deck". She may be very obvious internally.
Edit: I think the test is better utilized when they are still calves, so you don't waste your time keeping one around. But, if you have a freezer trade, she should do just fine.
Edit: I think the test is better utilized when they are still calves, so you don't waste your time keeping one around. But, if you have a freezer trade, she should do just fine.
The only way the vet can tell is with a DNA test. A freemarti may be functional but not have enough hormones to maintain a pregnancy. Just because she's complete doesn;t make her any less a freemartin.Jeanne - Simme Valley":2dmtd9la said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Yes, you are absolutely correct. But, a vet can easily determine that she IS a freemartin if parts or pieces are missing. He cannot tell if she IS NOT.
This would only be cost affective if you were already going to have a vet out for other purposes.
This would only be cost affective if you were already going to have a vet out for other purposes.
Most of the time a heifer twin to a bull will be a freemartin. By 10-12 months it is easy to see as they will look masqualin. I don't recall ever even considering a twin to a bull as a replacement and just send them to the feedlot.I do remember that there was once a Denver Grand Chapion heifer that was a freemartin and was very much a joke many long years ago. She wa s fat and pretty!!
pdfangus
Well-known member
Why bother?
the percentage of heifer born twin to a bull that will make a cow is so low that it is not worth worrying about.
I can not imagine that a twin heifer is the best heifer you have to keep in your herd.
Pick another for a replacment, beef this one thru your normal marketing procedure and roll on.
the percentage of heifer born twin to a bull that will make a cow is so low that it is not worth worrying about.
I can not imagine that a twin heifer is the best heifer you have to keep in your herd.
Pick another for a replacment, beef this one thru your normal marketing procedure and roll on.
novaman
Well-known member
I can't answer for Poundsy but I've got a heifer that was twinned to a bull and I am going to bother. Everything I breed is something I want to keep in my herd. The heifer I have is out of my best milk cow and sired by one of the top sires at Select Sires. If she turns out to be fertile she will be worth more than you can put a dollar figure on. If she is freemartin she will be worth little more than $50. Obviously beef is a bit different but I have personally seen an expectedly free martin heifer turn out to be good so you have to give it a shot. What would give a twin heifer any less merit than a non-twin?pdfangus":4hxltlfn said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
I have a friend that has had 2 different heifers turn out to be breeders (twin to bulls). In the Simmental Assn., you cannot register a heifer twin to a bull until she produces a calf. But, it can be very worth it. I actually have one that is showing no abnormal signs & I may end up testing her. Every mating I have is "designed" to produce a top quality heifer so, yes, it can be worth it.
pdfangus
Well-known member
Well,
I am certainly not in a league with master breeders.
Never achieved any fame or acclaim.
Just sold some breeding stock to my friends and neighbors.
Every mating I have made in my brief 35 year tenure of breeding cows was designed to produce the animal that would bring us fame and acclaim.
But the fact is that they don't all turn out to be Denver champions. especially difficult if you don't show.
I select for production. Practical, low maintenance, trouble free production. My market was my neighbors within 25 miles of my gate. My customers are primarily working folks who have a few cattle as a side line. they don't have time to tend to troublesome cattle that need constant work and attention.
Twins are a pain in the a$$ trait, and not one to be selected for.
Not every calf born on my place is automatcily guaranteed a spot on the roster. they have to earn it by being practical, trouble free, low maintenace, healthy, growthy and productive.
In the old days it was called selection. when we had sixty cows I would raise 6 to 10 heifers per year and 3 to 6 bulls. The rest we called Feeder Calves and handled and sold just like our customers do.
I kept the best, best by adjusted weaning weight, best by epd profile and best by phenotypic evaluation.
Never had a twin heifer or bull make that list without extensive supplementation and special treatment. And in my experience they never went on to equalm much less exceed, their less favored peers.
But that is just me.
almost every calf we raised was by a big name AI bull as we AI bred every cow at least once most years. But the fact that they are AI sired does not make em great. Performance suited to the environment does. Sons of our good cows that excelled in our environment, bred back to good cows in our environment, often exceeded the AI sires because they were adapted to our environment. and you never heard of any of them. BFA Orville sired the Culpeper Senior BCIA test high gainer a few years ago at 5.91 lbs per day. Now down to a few cows I still have an Orville daughter.
As my dear old Daddy use to say, "The world would be a nicer place if there were a lot less bulls and stallions and a lot more good steers and geldings in it." I find this logic should apply to breeding females as well.
So, do what you will. they are your cows. I hope each one of them will bring 50,000. and i won't change your mind anyhow. Nor will you change mine. we are all entitled to our opinion. there may well be some wise individual who thinks a heifer twin to a bull that will breed is a special commodity worth a lot of money. I am just not that person.
I am certainly not in a league with master breeders.
Never achieved any fame or acclaim.
Just sold some breeding stock to my friends and neighbors.
Every mating I have made in my brief 35 year tenure of breeding cows was designed to produce the animal that would bring us fame and acclaim.
But the fact is that they don't all turn out to be Denver champions. especially difficult if you don't show.
I select for production. Practical, low maintenance, trouble free production. My market was my neighbors within 25 miles of my gate. My customers are primarily working folks who have a few cattle as a side line. they don't have time to tend to troublesome cattle that need constant work and attention.
Twins are a pain in the a$$ trait, and not one to be selected for.
Not every calf born on my place is automatcily guaranteed a spot on the roster. they have to earn it by being practical, trouble free, low maintenace, healthy, growthy and productive.
In the old days it was called selection. when we had sixty cows I would raise 6 to 10 heifers per year and 3 to 6 bulls. The rest we called Feeder Calves and handled and sold just like our customers do.
I kept the best, best by adjusted weaning weight, best by epd profile and best by phenotypic evaluation.
Never had a twin heifer or bull make that list without extensive supplementation and special treatment. And in my experience they never went on to equalm much less exceed, their less favored peers.
But that is just me.
almost every calf we raised was by a big name AI bull as we AI bred every cow at least once most years. But the fact that they are AI sired does not make em great. Performance suited to the environment does. Sons of our good cows that excelled in our environment, bred back to good cows in our environment, often exceeded the AI sires because they were adapted to our environment. and you never heard of any of them. BFA Orville sired the Culpeper Senior BCIA test high gainer a few years ago at 5.91 lbs per day. Now down to a few cows I still have an Orville daughter.
As my dear old Daddy use to say, "The world would be a nicer place if there were a lot less bulls and stallions and a lot more good steers and geldings in it." I find this logic should apply to breeding females as well.
So, do what you will. they are your cows. I hope each one of them will bring 50,000. and i won't change your mind anyhow. Nor will you change mine. we are all entitled to our opinion. there may well be some wise individual who thinks a heifer twin to a bull that will breed is a special commodity worth a lot of money. I am just not that person.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Jim, I was not "belittling" your breeding program at all. In most cases, I would agree - it's twin to a bull - why bother. But, there are exceptions. I have had MANY "freemartins" - I HATE TWINS!! most on this board knows that.
But, just because a female is a twin (heifer/heifer) does NOT mean she won't make the cut. And, yes, not all our females make the cut - and very few of our males (maybe 10% ?).
But, I have had two sets of twin heifers that the cow raised on her own. Sold one twin as a 2-yr old c/c pair, kept the other & is sill in the herd. Sold one twin as a bred yearling & kept the other & is still in the herd. So all 4 "made the cut" & made me big money with 2 of them & have 2 breeders. They were not treated special but still made the cut.
The twin I have is a single calf being raised by a 12 year old cow (bull died). Would love to add another daughter to the herd.
So - just saying - there are EXCEPTIONS. Not everything is black & white.
But, just because a female is a twin (heifer/heifer) does NOT mean she won't make the cut. And, yes, not all our females make the cut - and very few of our males (maybe 10% ?).
But, I have had two sets of twin heifers that the cow raised on her own. Sold one twin as a 2-yr old c/c pair, kept the other & is sill in the herd. Sold one twin as a bred yearling & kept the other & is still in the herd. So all 4 "made the cut" & made me big money with 2 of them & have 2 breeders. They were not treated special but still made the cut.
The twin I have is a single calf being raised by a 12 year old cow (bull died). Would love to add another daughter to the herd.
So - just saying - there are EXCEPTIONS. Not everything is black & white.
CKC1586
Well-known member
My 2008 twin to a bull heifer was physically fine with no outward "signs", the probe the vets can use while the calf is under 30 days old was too close to call, the blood test revealed that she was indeed a freemartin and it cost me $35.00. Worth it to me to know what to plan for her. I sure was hoping that she would be in that small percentage of being fertile. She was beautiful.Poundsy":3lv8hvqq said:
First of all, I believe almost everything in life is a cost/benefit ratio, so if the potential benefit to you (i.e. the calf will potentially turn out to be worth good money, then the cost is negligible). And from what you have posted, your gonna test and I for one wish you luck that it is not a freemartin. I don't do the tests (because I trust my left arm - and it works cheaper), so I will defer to the other posts.
Now, having said that, while palpating/etc, you can look at a lot of older calves and tell they are freemartins without palpating. I have been on a farm, palpating replacement heifers, and have seen more than one that I then looked at the owner and asked "is that a twin to a bull?" and most every time, I was right. And in those instances, when palpating, all I would feel is a stump instead of normal female reproductive track. If as the calf "grows up", it looks more feminine, then there is a chance it may be ok.
My simple explanation of the cause of a freemartin:
The development of a freemartin is due to the location of the calves' placenta during develop in the uterus. Fusion of the twin placentas results in a common blood supply between the twin fetuses. The placenta will then allow for different antigens, cells, etc to be shared between the two calves in the uterus, thus producing a freemartin heifer (and potentially a decreased fertility in the bull calf). If the two embryos are able to implant far enough apart in the uterus (not likey reason for 90% freemartins) the placentas will not fuse, then the antigens are not shared and the heifer can be fertile. This is the reason why some heifers can be normal. Now, as with anything else, there are "variations", so the "degree" of fusion of the placentas will allow for a more feminine heifer with reproductive problems. I recently palpated a cow (for my dad) that looked normal phenotypically, but hadn't calved for the two years he had owned it. When palpating, I noticed a smaller uterine horn on the left and nothing on the right. Because he bought it at the sale, we don't know if it is a freemartin or the development was due to something else. Hope this helps explain the freemartin development (and why some twins can be fertile).
Again, good luck with the test.
T
Now, having said that, while palpating/etc, you can look at a lot of older calves and tell they are freemartins without palpating. I have been on a farm, palpating replacement heifers, and have seen more than one that I then looked at the owner and asked "is that a twin to a bull?" and most every time, I was right. And in those instances, when palpating, all I would feel is a stump instead of normal female reproductive track. If as the calf "grows up", it looks more feminine, then there is a chance it may be ok.
My simple explanation of the cause of a freemartin:
The development of a freemartin is due to the location of the calves' placenta during develop in the uterus. Fusion of the twin placentas results in a common blood supply between the twin fetuses. The placenta will then allow for different antigens, cells, etc to be shared between the two calves in the uterus, thus producing a freemartin heifer (and potentially a decreased fertility in the bull calf). If the two embryos are able to implant far enough apart in the uterus (not likey reason for 90% freemartins) the placentas will not fuse, then the antigens are not shared and the heifer can be fertile. This is the reason why some heifers can be normal. Now, as with anything else, there are "variations", so the "degree" of fusion of the placentas will allow for a more feminine heifer with reproductive problems. I recently palpated a cow (for my dad) that looked normal phenotypically, but hadn't calved for the two years he had owned it. When palpating, I noticed a smaller uterine horn on the left and nothing on the right. Because he bought it at the sale, we don't know if it is a freemartin or the development was due to something else. Hope this helps explain the freemartin development (and why some twins can be fertile).
Again, good luck with the test.
T
