For those who NEVER pull a calf...

[Chris H]

First 6 heifers calved this year, and we've pulled 3 of the calves.
Let me assure you, the heifers are in adequate condition & bred to a calving ease bull. So what's the problem? We've had 1 tail first & 2 back feet presentations. The 2 with back feet presentations might have calved on their own, but I doubt the calves would have made it.

Now here's the question for those who 'NEVER' pull a calf, have you never had a malpresentation? Or do you just lose a few more than those of us who find those back feet sticking out and intervene to give the calf a better chance?

 

[RVF]

When I first got into the cattle business (early 90's), I was working full time and checked the cattle twice a day. I rarely pulled a calf and had very few calving problems. Since I was not there I obviously did not know how many were malpresented. During that time I had six sets of twins, all 12 calves live and never saw one born. Some will say I am lucky. Since I am farming full time things have changed. I usually check the cattle in the morning, noon and night. If some thing is happening, I will go back 2 to 4 hours later to check again. Since I can now see what is happening, I have started to pull more calves because of malpresentations and have come to the conclusion is the cow is bred right, she can calve out, and get a live calf from alot of different presentations. I believe that all mature cows can calve out a backwards calf without risk to the calves, I am a little more concerned with heifers (if I see feet back I still assist). I have cows that have successfully calved out the following:
- Head and one foot presented with one foot back
- Backwards calves
- Head, two front feet and one back foot presented at once (only took an easy pull - no chains - to get the hips out).
I have never had a cow calve out
- A breach calf
- Head down or to the side.
I personally believe that if you assist to soon, the cows can be trained to not work as hard in later calvings, and if you do not assist, you will develop a herd of cows that can calve may different presentations on their own.
The big thing here is not every system works for everybody. Since I run approximately 100 cows calving in 60 days, it is not a big deal to help those that need it. If I get to 500 cows, I will not have the time to help cows and it will be more cost effective to replace the cow than to hire extra help to assist them.
I have always run approximately 95% survival (number of calves weaned related to number of cows calving), so in my case I have approximately 2.5% death loss at calving and 2.5% death loss post calving.

 

[bandit80]

Between my brother and I we calve about 150 cows each spring. We almost always have to pull a couple due to malpresentation. Have had one tail first, one backwards, and had to pull another because the cow didn't want to push for some reason. Malpresentation is the main reason we have to pull, but there are almost always a few that need some assistance for one reason or another.

I find it hard to believe that some people NEVER have to pull a calf. There are just too many variables and sooner or later odds will catch up with you.

I have also seen cows deliver a calf backwards with no problems. We saw the calf was backwards, went to the barn to get some sorting sticks to lock her up to pull, but when we got back, she had already had it.

 

[bigbull338]

in 36yrs weve pulled a good meny calves.its just part of having cattle.i dont see how anyone has never pulled a calf an have cows.not saying it isnt possable just highly unlikely.

 

[MikeC]

First 6 heifers calved this year, and we've pulled 3 of the calves.
Let me assure you, the heifers are in adequate condition & bred to a calving ease bull. So what's the problem? We've had 1 tail first & 2 back feet presentations. The 2 with back feet presentations might have calved on their own, but I doubt the calves would have made it.

Now here's the question for those who 'NEVER' pull a calf, have you never had a malpresentation? Or do you just lose a few more than those of us who find those back feet sticking out and intervene to give the calf a better chance?

I have lately heard of an interesting theory concerning malpresentations and using calving ease bulls. (Small calves)

If the calf is smaller than what is considered "normal" for a cow at the end of the gestation period, incidentally also........ when the calf is more active, the calf will have more room in the womb to turn a foot or head back, and/or completely turn around, thus creating a malpresentation.

Can't say that I am totally convinced this could be true, but I can't argue against it because the logic is sound.

 

[dun]

We've pulled 2 calves and only one needed a jack. One the right leg was under it's chest and the hoof was behind it's left ear. May not have needed pulling but the cow was pretty tired. When the foot got moved around he almost popped out on his own but I hand pulled it, more of a tug. The other was a small bought bred heifer that tried to have a 110 lb calf. That one needed the jack. Borrowed it from the neighbor that pulls lots of calves. The few other bad presentations they've managed to have before I got a chance to do anything about correcting it. When we ran the cows in the canyons and only saw them occasioanlly I'm sure there were the odd presentation but only once did I find a dead cow with a malpresented calf.

 

[Chris H]

First 6 heifers calved this year, and we've pulled 3 of the calves.
Let me assure you, the heifers are in adequate condition & bred to a calving ease bull. So what's the problem? We've had 1 tail first & 2 back feet presentations. The 2 with back feet presentations might have calved on their own, but I doubt the calves would have made it.

Now here's the question for those who 'NEVER' pull a calf, have you never had a malpresentation? Or do you just lose a few more than those of us who find those back feet sticking out and intervene to give the calf a better chance?

I have lately heard of an interesting theory concerning malpresentations and using calving ease bulls. (Small calves)

If the calf is smaller than what is considered "normal" for a cow at the end of the gestation period, incidentally also........ when the calf is more active, the calf will have more room in the womb to turn a foot or head back, and/or completely turn around, thus creating a malpresentation.

Can't say that I am totally convinced this could be true, but I can't argue against it because the logic is sound.

Mike, I've heard that theory and I've been wondering about that myself. These calves are easily 10 lbs smaller than what these heifers could handle. But the calves have pretty big butts on them, making it a bit more difficult coming out backwards. We have some 3 & 4 year olds bred to the bull but they're spitting them out before we see them calve. We've seldom had to pull a backwards calf from a mature cow, unless it was tail first. So I don't know if we're having a higher than normal percent of backwards calves. Maybe we won't have anymore this season.

 

[hillsdown]

I don't know anyone that has never had a malpresentation or had to pull at least one calve that actually has cattle and has been doing this for more than a couple of years with more than say five head.(unless they weren't paying attention and lost the calves or have a horse shoe up their but ;-) )

In dairy we only used proven calving ease semen when AI'ing heifers , and we had a really good herd all in top condition ,but you still had to pull a calf once and a while even with semen that had a couple thousand daughters milking. It just happens.

I have had to pull more beef calves this year than ever before and had a backwards calf as well . The vet figured the higher birth weights were attributed to the very lush summer pasture we had this year, they all pigged out on endless grass. Who knows, but we used the same calving ease bull as last year but birth weights were up 25%.

 

[KNERSIE]

First 6 heifers calved this year, and we've pulled 3 of the calves.
Let me assure you, the heifers are in adequate condition & bred to a calving ease bull. So what's the problem? We've had 1 tail first & 2 back feet presentations. The 2 with back feet presentations might have calved on their own, but I doubt the calves would have made it.

Now here's the question for those who 'NEVER' pull a calf, have you never had a malpresentation? Or do you just lose a few more than those of us who find those back feet sticking out and intervene to give the calf a better chance?

I have lately heard of an interesting theory concerning malpresentations and using calving ease bulls. (Small calves)

If the calf is smaller than what is considered "normal" for a cow at the end of the gestation period, incidentally also........ when the calf is more active, the calf will have more room in the womb to turn a foot or head back, and/or completely turn around, thus creating a malpresentation.

Can't say that I am totally convinced this could be true, but I can't argue against it because the logic is sound.

I believe the exact opposite is true in the vast majority of the cases.

Shallow bodied heifers with less capacity than ideal has less body cavity and combine that with a big leggy calf results in less room for the calf to turn into birthing position therefore resulting in more malpresentations.

Anyone who has done late term palpations know that not all calves are already in the front feet and head first position. At some time that calves turn into position and if there isn't enough room to manoeuvre a malpresentation is the likely result.

I have never seen a unusually small calf being malpresented except in the case of tangled up twins.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

First 6 heifers calved this year, and we've pulled 3 of the calves.
Let me assure you, the heifers are in adequate condition & bred to a calving ease bull. So what's the problem? We've had 1 tail first & 2 back feet presentations. The 2 with back feet presentations might have calved on their own, but I doubt the calves would have made it.

Now here's the question for those who 'NEVER' pull a calf, have you never had a malpresentation? Or do you just lose a few more than those of us who find those back feet sticking out and intervene to give the calf a better chance?

i had this nightmare a few years ago with malpresentaion's. ive remembered cert's thread on producing too much amniotic fluid would cause malpresentation.....my point is, could enviroment,minerals, feed or what ever out of the odinary happened in that paticular year. have a effect on it. cause its seems to be more than coincidence. to have that many in one season... keep in mind im just ponderin'

 

[Chris H]

First 6 heifers calved this year, and we've pulled 3 of the calves.
Let me assure you, the heifers are in adequate condition & bred to a calving ease bull. So what's the problem? We've had 1 tail first & 2 back feet presentations. The 2 with back feet presentations might have calved on their own, but I doubt the calves would have made it.

Now here's the question for those who 'NEVER' pull a calf, have you never had a malpresentation? Or do you just lose a few more than those of us who find those back feet sticking out and intervene to give the calf a better chance?

I have lately heard of an interesting theory concerning malpresentations and using calving ease bulls. (Small calves)

If the calf is smaller than what is considered "normal" for a cow at the end of the gestation period, incidentally also........ when the calf is more active, the calf will have more room in the womb to turn a foot or head back, and/or completely turn around, thus creating a malpresentation.

Can't say that I am totally convinced this could be true, but I can't argue against it because the logic is sound.

I believe the exact opposite is true in the vast majority of the cases.

Shallow bodied heifers with less capacity than ideal has less body cavity and combine that with a big leggy calf results in less room for the calf to turn into birthing position therefore resulting in more malpresentations.

Anyone who has done late term palpations know that not all calves are already in the front feet and head first position. At some time that calves turn into position and if there isn't enough room to manoeuvre a malpresentation is the likely result.

I have never seen a unusually small calf being malpresented except in the case of tangled up twins.

Well, twins have more of a chance of backwards presentations, so there could be something to be said for your theory, too.
However, I disagree with your last statement. I'd say a 50 lb calf is unusually small, and one of the 3 we pulled was 50 lbs. The other two were 58 & 80(the tail first presentation). The 80 lb calf was out of a former show heifer so she was a good 1300 lbs, about mature size, already. The other two heifers were not as pampered and have some more growing to do, they're about 1100 lbs.

 

[TexasBred]

We haven't pulled a calf in 5 years or more and never lost a cow or a calf during this period. There could have been malpresentations with births that we didn't actually observe but apparently the cow had no problems giving birth.

Now when we had holsteins.....a totally different story. Seemed like I pulled a calf every other day. Many were lined up in the birth canal perfectly. Just had big shoulders or hips or just big period.

 

[KNERSIE]

50 lbs is unusually small, was the calf full term or could it be that being pushed around at feeding time or other similar situations initiated birth?

 

[TexasBred]

We have lots of 50-60 lb. calves born but they hit the ground growing it seems and wean out big.

 

[KNERSIE]

We have lots of 50-60 lb. calves born but they hit the ground growing it seems and wean out big.

I can't say I have many that small, but mine are typically in the 65-80lb range. All my malpresentations was calves above 90lbs and I had very few malpresentations so far.

 

[Chris H]

Knersie, we've got several cows who regularly have very small calves, but bring in nice size calves at weaning. The heifer that had the 50 lb calf is related to them. Our typical calf is 70-80.

 

[Wewild]

Now here's the question for those who 'NEVER' pull a calf, have you never had a malpresentation? Or do you just lose a few more than those of us who find those back feet sticking out and intervene to give the calf a better chance?

Watched the first time they cut a calves head off to get the legs unfolded because it couldn't be worked out. Cut the next one myself. My Dad had to get a vet ... she went inside and cut up a Donkey's calve with a wire saw and brought it out a piece at a time. Those are the worse i've been through.

We pull when we find them in need and sometimes we find both dead. It just don't happen often around here. Even with heifers.

 

[Chris H]

Now here's the question for those who 'NEVER' pull a calf, have you never had a malpresentation? Or do you just lose a few more than those of us who find those back feet sticking out and intervene to give the calf a better chance?

Watched the first time they cut a calves head off to get the legs unfolded because it couldn't be worked out. Cut the next one myself. My Dad had to get a vet ... she went inside and cut up a Donkey's calve with a wire saw and brought it out a piece at a time. Those are the worse i've been through.

We pull when we find them in need and sometimes we find both dead. It just don't happen often around here. Even with heifers.

Darn, you had to jog my memory on that method. 3 years ago we called the vet for a calf I couldn't sort out. He happened to have his 5 year old daughter with him. When he pulled out the wire saw I used that opportunity to keep his 5 year old and our 5 year old grandson occupied away from the calving pen.

 

[angus9259]

Sometimes it just seems like everything bad happens in one year. You may go the next 30 and never see a malpresentation again. One year I lost two pastured young beef cows to mastitis. Something you hardly ever see, happens twice, then gone.