First post question

[SimAngus farmer]

First time to post here and I have a question I believe some of you could help to answer. I have 32 momma cows, 25 of which are 1/2x1/2 simangus. The balance are predominately angus influence. I currently have 1/2x1/2 simangus bull. He's a Dual Focus son from Gibbs Farm. My first crop of his calves should start hitting the ground next month.
Last years crop was split between reg. Angus bull, J Bar J Nightride (simangus) and another simangus cleanup bull, also from Gibbs Farm. I name these for information and to note the overall sire quality. Half of the dams were 1st calf heifers and the others at least 3rd timers.
I kept out high quality mineral tubs with protein supplement all fall and winter. I do not creep feed and calves have no other feed other than milk, grass and hay.
I say all this to say, these were some of the dinkiest calves I have raised in my short 4 years in the business. Calves did not shed off, even into July (Northwest Alabama). Most bull calves were less than 400# at 7 months. Heifer calves were considerably lighter.
My question is, what am I doing wrong? I am moving all cows to a new property at the end of this month. My grandfather just sold out and I'll be taking over his farm. I know more about the ground they'll be running on from here on out. Could poor ground cause all these issues. Cows are making it well and good flesh. I wormed all cattle in early spring also. Most all heifers and cows had above average milk production.
Sorry for the novel, just trying to get all the info out I can. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Supa Dexta]

Have any pictures to share? Bulls, cows, calves. It'll all help to come up with an answer. Off the bat if you're saying the cows were in shape and had milk - it points towards genetics, if the calves weren't sickly.

Have these cows raised great calves in the past on other bulls (or even the same bulls)?
Could you tell any difference between which bull had which calves?
Were these calves raised on grass most of their life? Or mostly hay.
I don't know your grass and hay quality, but cows can maintain better on poor hay than calves can grow on it.

Just because they have a name doesn't mean they're gonna be good. Also on cross bred cows I'd likely want to stick with a purebred bull. I'm guilty myself of currently running a simangus bull on some of my crosscows, but I'm also not seeing the calves I want to see yet from the mix, compared to my purebred sired calves.

 

[Lucky_P]

What SD said.
Yes, I know the Gibbs name, and I like a lot of their bulls... but not all are created equal. Sometimes (not always) you give up some growth to get calving ease. I've purposely avoided anything with Mytty In Focus behind it... I don't need 'em THAT little.
I don't expect much out of my first-calf heifers. If they birth, mother, and raise a calf, they've earned a chance to stay another round - but they'd better step it up .
And, yes, you may need some help with your nutritional program. Grass & hay alone may not be meeting their needs; sometimes you gotta spend a buck to make 2 bucks... 400lb may be all you get if they're toughing it out. Protein tubs... not a fan; pretty expensive way to get a little in 'em - you could buy quite a bit of bulk feed for what those tubs cost... but it's pretty easy to dump 'em out there and feel like you've done something.

 

[SimAngus farmer]

Thank you for the feed back. I don't have any current pictures at this time. There was no big seperation between sire groups and the only one that I had raised calves on before was my Angus bull. He stopped fully mounting the cows late in the breeding season and was favoring his rear legs. That is when I made the switch to my current simangus bull. I only had 3 cows that I can surely say were out of him( new bull).
As for forage and hay quality, my hay had been cut late, so I'm sure I gave up quite a lot on quality. Grass played out early in the winter on account of, after I clipped the field in August rains missed me during most of the fall. So I would say all cattle were mostly on hay for at least half the winter season (1-2 months). Also all calves were born from September to November.
I was afraid that I gave up too much growth for going after the LBW epd. I had several calves off of heifers that weighed less than 50#.
I could see a slight difference in calf size based on cow age which I expected. But even the mature cows raised considerably smaller, rough coat calves. However, in the past few years I've had them, the same mature cows haven't packed the lbs on their calves but have weaned slick, nice looking calves that brought mid to top dollar at the sale.
I know the land I currently have them on hasn't been regularly fertilized. I put out chicken litter 2 years back, but haven't since due to the lease being somewhat month to month. Contracts were signed with the land owner to strip mine for coal. I didn't think I could afford to put out fertilizer and then Be told it was time to go. Turns out I couldn't afford not to maybe.
Family land that I'll be moving them to has been fertilzer yearly and I am in the process of getting soil samples to send off now. I'll be fertilizing this fall per sample results. Also planning to over seed with marshall ryegrass.
I'm trying to cover all possible areas of issue and appreciate all of the input. As I'm sure with my limited experience I'm overlooking or undervaluing some changes that need making.
I also will have my grandfathers history of calves from the same farm to judge mine against next spring. May help to rule out or verify my cows abilities to raise a good calf.
Thanks again for all input. The more I can pick up from the pros may cut out at least the same hard knocks.

 

[Son of Butch]

Protein tubs... not a fan; pretty expensive way to get a little in 'em - you could buy quite a bit of bulk feed for what those tubs cost... but it's pretty easy to dump 'em out there and feel like you've done something.

No creep feed.
How dumb an idea would it be to put out protein tub for calves only?
Maybe a hot wire in a corner of the pasture, strung high enough that only the calves could go under.
Guess I'm just thinking out loud for future reference, since the calves are already over 210 days old.

 

[bird dog]

Lucky what are some of the reasons calves don't shed off their winter hair?

 

[Lucky_P]

bird dog
I don't know. Some of it is genetic.
I watched the group of weanling and yearling heifers we had up at the house earlier this summer. All out of similarly-bred ANxSimAngus cows, but sired by 3 different Shorthorn and 3 different Simmental sires... all were on the same pasture & feed, had access to the same mineral, all were dewormed with injectible Ivomec. Most slicked off clean... some still have some winter baby hair hanging on, as of yesterday.

 

[Workinonit Farm]

From what I've read so far, it sounds like nutrition could easily have played a role. I didn't read anything about minerals. (not just a block) It sounds like the hay was not that great of quality, same with what little grass was available. That can be a little bit of a challenge for a cow to produce alot of milk besides the calves eating the same grass and hay.

It would be interesting to see how the next group of calves, raised up on the grandfather's place, compares to this last group.

 

[Craig Miller]

:welcome: to the boards from Haleyville.

 

[SimAngus farmer]

Workinonit Farm- I forgot to add that the protein tub was a mineral tub with protein supplement. I'll try and get a picture of the label of the product I use. Based on the ingredients, there might be some adjustments you could recommend. I too am looking forward to the coming crops hopefully improved results.
Craig Miller- thanks neighbor and War Eagle!

 

[SimAngus farmer]

Workinonit Farm- I couldn't decipher the picture posting at first glance. May have to study on it a little more, but here is the guaranteed analysis:
Calving/ Rebreeding Tub w/Novus MFP

Crude Protein (min) 20.00%
Crude Fat (min) 5.50%
Crude Fiber (max) 3.75%
Calcium (min) 4.50%
Calcium (max) 5.50%
Phosphorus (min) 1.40%
Salt (min) 4.80%
Salt (max) 5.80%
Magnesium (min) 4.00%
Potassium (min) 2.30%
Copper (min) 400ppm
Manganese (min) 1200ppm
Selenium (min) 6.6ppm
Zinc (min) 1600ppm
Vit A (min) 50,000IU/lb
Vit D-3 (min) 11,000IU/lb
Vit E (min) 80IU/lb

Chelated forms of manganese, zinc and copper

 

[branguscowgirl]

My vet is a firm believer in tube worming for maximum benefits. The "not shedding out" coupled with the low growth makes me think parasites passed from the cows/pasture to the calves from the very start. Just a thought. Might want to have some stool checked. In some areas a couple times per year with Ivermectin just don't cut it. And it is my understanding that it does not get Tape worms. Which you may not see a big issue in your cows, but certainly could in your calves.

Read about Tapeworms. :D

 

[Workinonit Farm]

The tub appears to have a decent vit. & Min. as well as protein content. Some folks don't like the Protein tubs, I think they are OK as a protein supplement to poor quality hay.

Each animal gets "just so much" of the vitamins and minerals from these tubs. Its certainly better than nothing. I have fed Crystalyx tubs,in the past, especially during times of drought. I used them more for a protein supplement rather than their main source of minerals. I, as well as many folks, use/feed loose minerals free choice formulated for my area.

I mentioned the minerals because a good mineral program will help to enable the "gut"/ digestive system to utilize nutrients more fully.

The issue you've had with your calves could be a combination of factors;genetics,vpoor feed/forage, parasites, etc.

Again, I'd be curious to see how the next group of calves turn out, especially if their mommas are out on different ground.