Experianced (big) Rancher Vs Beginner (small) Rancher

[aplusmnt]

We have had a lot of post about Hobby farms, Beginner Cattle People. Large operations vs Small Operations. And lots of criticism from older more experienced Cattle men.

But what I wonder is as much as these more experienced Ranchers have lots to offer in their experiance. Could a young person or a beginner starting out make it in today's market if they did things the same way as these older Ranchers have and still do? Seems many of these guys started out when things were cheaper, land was more affordable. Some inherited farms from generations before them. Most probably have their farms paid for years ago. And now if they operate less efficient it is not a detriment to them.

Could a new rancher still operate under these ways and build a big herd or a large operation that would make money?

Or do things such as shorter Calving seasons, EPD's, Paying attentions to Carcass Quality, New Research on Grazing, Breeding, Management, Marketing and Vaccinations have to be utilized to Make it from a fresh start in today's Cattle Industry?

Can you run an operation that can support your family well above the poverty level without Computers and New Technology of today?

I know the old timers made it with out all this but could they if they were starting out today, and were not already established from Simpler times. Times when a person did not need as much to live, land was cheaper, Gas was cheaper?

 

[Beefy]

it depends.

 

[jaydill]

In my opinion, it's a little harder now...there are more things to consider because of the advancements we've made and the greater knowledge we have now.

 

[backhoeboogie]

It was hard to get a loan when I was first starting out. So my answer, absolutely not.

Imagine you are say 25 years old, have a 4 year degree, and some credibility. The bank may loan you a little.

You could move to an area where land is "affordable" and pay a small fortune for 300 acres. That is a lot of capital. You could lease land and always be at the mercy of the landowners. (another option)

300 acres should support about 80 head, which is going to cost you about $60K in capital for quality range cattle.

You're going to need a truck, trailer, tractor, farm implements, etc. Figure atleast another $60K. We haven't even considered a barn yet or a place to even store hay or feed.

So, if you have a half mil in capital, you might start netting enough to sell on average a cow a week or so, if you are just starting out. You are always at the mercy of mother nature, henceforth.

Around this county, rocky cedar infested unimproved hilltop is fetching a minimum of $5K an acre. Lots of folks I work with are buying affordable land 100 miles away, to retire on. They are still paying $1500 an acre for anything of quality and I don't think any of it is working farm type land with working pens, barns etc.

Hence, I do not think a poor kid just starting out in life can just jump in and be a rancher.

There are other options such as brokering and things. But that is not necessarily being a "rancher".

 

[TheLazyM]

my 2 cents. you've got to have money but not a computer. if a man or woman can get hands on the cash wiether it be to get the animals or has to get the land what ever they can make it. nope they wont be takeing bill gates out for lunch but they'll make it, then again thats if the hardships dont use up all the money. but the goals of yesterday is pretty much the same as today somewhat. so i think one can use yesterdays tricks and ideas to pull it off. remember them old timers really had to pull rabbits out of their hats at times to make it.

 

[D.R. Cattle]

Don't need to do anything. But it really bothers me to know there is a product or technique that will save me or make me money in the long run and I'm not using it. So I do what works for me, and stay on my toes for new ideas.

 

[Beef11]

Ranching and owning land, while both are needed they are to be viewed as seperate profit centers. You don't need to own land to be a rancher. Land is an investment in itself and should be viewed as such. There is an oppritunity that should always be afixed to land that is already owned. Farming is not ranching and should be viewed in much the same manner as land. With these things said i believe that it is very possible for someone who wants IT to get it, if they are willing top sacrifce for what they are after. People see getting into livestock as something that you have to be completely set up for from the 18,000 deeded acres to the john Deere Gators and everything in between. I started with a '73 dodge truck and a '82 four horse trailer (an ugly old thing). People want it all and they want it now. Be patient. Be Smart.

 

[Victoria]

I am thankful that we own all we have. There's no debts. Before BSE we had drought so during BSE I watched a lot of neighbours go under because they owed money and when the prices dropped they couldn't make it. Around here land prices are rising far more than cattle prices so if you don't have a way of owning the land without the help of the bank it would be pretty hard to make it.

There's a lot to be said with all the new concepts like EPDs and different research coming out. It's smart to pay attention to it all. It's also a good idea for new people to ask someone who has experience.

 

[frenchie]

. You don't need to own land to be a rancher. .

Well said

 

[Caustic Burno]

We have had a lot of post about Hobby farms, Beginner Cattle People. Large operations vs Small Operations. And lots of criticism from older more experienced Cattle men.

But what I wonder is as much as these more experienced Ranchers have lots to offer in their experiance. Could a young person or a beginner starting out make it in today's market if they did things the same way as these older Ranchers have and still do? Seems many of these guys started out when things were cheaper, land was more affordable. Some inherited farms from generations before them. Most probably have their farms paid for years ago. And now if they operate less efficient it is not a detriment to them.

Could a new rancher still operate under these ways and build a big herd or a large operation that would make money?

Or do things such as shorter Calving seasons, EPD's, Paying attentions to Carcass Quality, New Research on Grazing, Breeding, Management, Marketing and Vaccinations have to be utilized to Make it from a fresh start in today's Cattle Industry?

Can you run an operation that can support your family well above the poverty level without Computers and New Technology of today?

I know the old timers made it with out all this but could they if they were starting out today, and were not already established from Simpler times. Times when a person did not need as much to live, land was cheaper, Gas was cheaper?

The cattle business is constantly changing but some things will hold true foreever. The size of his herd has nothing to do with knowledge, it does have to do with experience, more cattle more trainwrecks you get to see . I critized them for humanizing cattle and whinning about penning cattle. I have seen some really stupid doctor,lawyers and Indian Chiefs with large herds. Brokeover comment got a few fired up we have found one on the board, never know what your going to catch when you go fishing in this pond.

 

[Beef11]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beef11 wrote:
. You don't need to own land to be a rancher. .


Well said

thanks Frenchie, Good to know we agree on something.

 

[backhoeboogie]

There's nothing here to hide from anyone. You can call me a hobby farmer if you want. Farming is not my mainstay. It is sort of just in my blood. If I was farming for a living, times would be even harder now with the drought. Its hard enough as it is. In fact, I'm glad I am not feeding 300 head. I'd be selling off many.

I am very proud of what I have, and I am attached to them. That's the way it is.

The original thread discussed someone just starting out and trying to make a living at it, without inherited land and without a lot of capital. I don't agree with many of the replies, especially after seeing lifelong GOOD cattle folks go under. Many of them went under in the 80's and it wasn't mismanagement. This drought has a great deal of folks struggling now. If you are calling all these folks idiots for not making it, so be it. I have respect for most of them. Times are tough. Many own their farms and have little debt so they will make it.

If anyone jsut went into the business here in the last couple of years, had debt, and are trying to feed cows in this scenario, they must be farming something that isn't legal, otherwise they'd be toast. When cactus can't even survive this drought, there isn't much else that will either.

Finally, EVERYONE started for the first time at some point. The big cattle folks weren't always big, unless they took over from dad & mom, which means they didn't build it themselves. There seems to be a lot of negative going on towards those of us who don't have huge spreads. This post itself doesn't offer a great deal of hope for anyone. It is kind of the opposite for why I read this forum.

 

[msscamp]

Many of them went under in the 80's and it wasn't mismanagement. This drought has a great deal of folks struggling now.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but doesn't all of this come under management? Isn't management the foresight and knowledge to recognize that things will go wrong and have a workable plan to survive the inevitable monkey wrench in the works? I wouldn't classify BSE in this category, but that is the only one I can think of that doesn't fit. Am I wrong?

 

[Beef11]

I mostlyagree with you msscamp. When setting up your long term plan you had better figure on a drought and on adjusting your carrying capacities up or down. If your new and on the edge and didnt buy right i can see something catastrophic knocking you out of the game.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Many of them went under in the 80's and it wasn't mismanagement. This drought has a great deal of folks struggling now.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but doesn't all of this come under management? Isn't management the foresight and knowledge to recognize that things will go wrong and have a workable plan to survive the inevitable monkey wrench in the works? I wouldn't classify BSE in this category, but that is the only one I can think of that doesn't fit. Am I wrong?

What caused a lot to go under was cattle prices collapsed along with drought and bangs and the collapse of savings and loans. When the savings and loans collapsed the government recalled the loans. Testing for bangs had kicked off if a case was found your herd was quarentined(sp) with the infected animal branded with a B on the jaw. This animal had to be destoyed or sold for slaughter only,run that one through the salebarn and get a nickel a pound for her.

 

[backhoeboogie]

You are probably correct. This is simply the worse year ever for my county. We've all heard about the dust bowl etc. That was nothing in comparison. You hear about the 50's and how "they burned cactus needles and fed the catus to cattle." Heck, most of the cactus is dried up. WE'VE BROKEN ALL DROUGHT RECORDS. Fort Worth is in awful shape and they received rain we didn't get. We were praying for the Hurricane RITA to come this way.

There are folks who totally depend on farming here. Its like they went to work last year everyday but never got a red cent for all their work. So they sell their cows because they can't feed them.

I say if you can go an entire year with no income, and see your expenses vastly increase, you have indeed MANAGED very well. Most multi-million dollar corporations couldn't do that.

So. For someone just getting started in the cattle business, its very good to pay attention to what many have learned the hard way.

 

[msscamp]

Many of them went under in the 80's and it wasn't mismanagement. This drought has a great deal of folks struggling now.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but doesn't all of this come under management? Isn't management the foresight and knowledge to recognize that things will go wrong and have a workable plan to survive the inevitable monkey wrench in the works? I wouldn't classify BSE in this category, but that is the only one I can think of that doesn't fit. Am I wrong?

What caused a lot to go under was cattle prices collapsed along with drought and bangs and the collapse of savings and loans. When the savings and loans collapsed the government recalled the loans. Testing for bangs had kicked off if a case was found your herd was quarentined(sp) with the infected animal branded with a B on the jaw. This animal had to be destoyed or sold for slaughter only,run that one through the salebarn and get a nickel a pound for her.

I remember the savings and loans collapsing, but I didn't know about the rest of it. Any one of those would be hard enough to weather, but all of them together would be darned near impossible. A nickel a pound? :shock: :shock:

 

[frenchie]

I.M.H.O I think quite a few jump into the cattle business.They load up on high priced cattle, equipment, land.Thinking its all gravy ..That there will never be a down day in the cattle market,or drought or diease to contend with and its consequences..
a nickel a lb I seen those prices too.

 

[S.R.R.]

I must admit when my first $2400 bull died after only having him 3 months I learned a hard lesson about the cattle business :( . It sure ani't all roses.

 

[houstoncutter]

I think a problem for some of the newer folks coming into ranching is they dont do their homework. We have had a cattle cycle around for a long time. I think the biggest secret that I learned the hard way, was to wait till cows bottomed out to buy in, and sell out when they started to drop... The bottom out part is easy....knowing when the sell comes a lot harder.