Okay... I'm new to EPD's and I'm trying to wrap my head around them. I'm looking at purchasing a Brangus bull and want to make the right choice so I need some assistance in understanding EPD's. I understand for instance if Bull A has a BW of -0.9 and bull B has a BW of -3.5, then Bull A will have a higher BW calf. What I can't seem to understand is what is the baseline that the EPD's are being compared to??? Is there a list of "Brangus" average BW, WW, YW, Milk, etc. that are the baseline for brangus EPD's?
EPD's
- Thread starter mjrogers
- Start date
Help Support CattleToday:
MO_cows
Well-known member
There should be a percentile chart available for Brangus, look on the assn's web site. It will tell you how the EPD's of the animal you are looking at "rank" within the breed. 50% is the breed average, maybe that's the baseline you are looking for?? And be sure to consider the accuracy of the EPD's, too, low accuracy is like 20% chance of rain.
AudieWyoming
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2009
- Messages
- 270
- Reaction score
- 0
Your basic concept is right, just don't apply it to a single calf. In theory, if the original EPD estimates are accurate, If each bull were randomly mated to enough cows (Say 100 each or more) Bull A calves average birth weight would be 2.6 lbs. larger than Bull B. but Bull B could very easly sire some of the bigger individual birth weights.
I like to look at the EPDs back in the pedigree to see how honest the early EPDs are. I don't like to see a low BW bull on a high EPD cow, with a small reported actual BW generate a negitive or low BW EPD. EPDs are a selection aid, the bull needs to look the part too.@
I like to look at the EPDs back in the pedigree to see how honest the early EPDs are. I don't like to see a low BW bull on a high EPD cow, with a small reported actual BW generate a negitive or low BW EPD. EPDs are a selection aid, the bull needs to look the part too.@
mjrogers":2lvsmeaw said:
mjrogers":gw9og7kj said:
EPDs will never tell you what something will weigh at any time. They just tell you that if you breed a bull with a BW EPD (for example) of 5 to a cow, you'd EXPECT the calf to weigh 5 more lbs at birth than if you bred that same cow (same conditions) to a bull with a BW EPD of 0. Here's a link to the International Brangus Breeders Assn. Maybe you can find the answer to your question there. But my best suggestion is to repost this thread on the "Breeds" board here at Cattle Today and put "Brangus EPDs" as the title. I think that board gets more traffic. There are Brangus breeders on the board and, hopefully, they'll be able to help you.
http://gobrangus.com/
Also, here's a link to an explanation of Angus EPDs. The breeds all have different EPDs, but they work about the same, so it might help you understand the EPD concept.
http://www.angus.org/Nce/Definitions.aspx
thanks for your help... So what I understand is there really is no "baseline?" What I mean by baseline is for example: All brangus have an average BW of 70 lbs, so a bull with a BW of -0.9 would have calves on average around 69.1 lbs? I just don't understand what advantage having a BW EPD, if theres no standard comparison like the example I gave of 70 lbs. If I knew all bulls were being compared to "70 lbs" birth weight calves, then I could determine what size calves I felt that my cattle could handle and then in turn determine what BW bull I would need. I know this isn't a factory and there will be fluctuations in BW, but I again am confused about no standard for comparison.
mjrogers":3a887i7j said:
I thought that was what you were trying to do. No, that's not how EPDs work. Bulls are compared to other individual bulls within the breed. EPDs will never tell you what something will weigh because there's no way to put the cow's contribution to the calf into the equation. If you breed a bull with a BW EPD of 5 to a Jersey cow, would you expect the calf to weigh the same as if you bred him to a Charlaois cow? BUT if you breed a bull with a 5 lb BW EPD to those two cows, you can still EXPECT each calf to weigh 5 more pounds at birth than if you bred those same two cows to a bull with a BW EPD of 0. There's just no way to predict the actual weight of either calf. Am I making sense?
mjrogers":3fq2g17g said:
You're welcome. Sometimes it's a bit hard to get the concept down for EPDs and some people try to use them for stuff they were never intended to be used for.
IMO, you need to find a Brangus breeder to help you out. I see you haven't had any responses on the post at the "Breeds" board. Hopefully you will. While you're waiting, check out the Brangus Assn link I posted. If you can find the average actual birthweight for the breed last year, it would give you some idea of the average size of the calves born. Good luck.....
Lucky_P
Well-known member
There IS a baseline, and it's different for each breed. The breed associations each chose a particular YEAR ( might be 1983 for some breed, 1976 for another, etc.) and epds are computed in comparison to breed average for specific traits for that base year.
For instance, current breed average BW epd for Angus is something like +2.2, not 0;
As others have indicated, they're EXPECTED progeny differences, and they're based on actual (and to some degree, theoretical) matings across a population of animals in that breed. Looking at a single animal, things may not always shake out as you'd expect - you've got to consider that the cow also brings something to the table.
I've had 50 lb calves and 105 lb calves out of the same bull in the same calving season.
For instance, current breed average BW epd for Angus is something like +2.2, not 0;
As others have indicated, they're EXPECTED progeny differences, and they're based on actual (and to some degree, theoretical) matings across a population of animals in that breed. Looking at a single animal, things may not always shake out as you'd expect - you've got to consider that the cow also brings something to the table.
I've had 50 lb calves and 105 lb calves out of the same bull in the same calving season.
novaman
Well-known member
Is there a reason they don't update the baselines that the EPD's are put against? I'm not as familiar with how the beef EPD's are calculated but on the dairy side, they update the baseline every 5 years. For instance, in January this year they updated the baselines to the average females born in the 2005 calendar year. In January 2015 they will again update the baselines to the average females being born THIS calendar year. This system gives a better idea on the progression being made and results in numbers that are more meaningful for the current timeframe.Lucky_P":16bnrbsk said:
Lucky_P
Well-known member
novaman,
Some of the beef breed associations *may* re-set their baseline periodically, but I'm not aware of any that do. Most do track - and publish, on a regular basis - 'genetic trend' information showing the changes, over time, of measurements of various traits like BW, WW, YW, etc.
Some of the beef breed associations *may* re-set their baseline periodically, but I'm not aware of any that do. Most do track - and publish, on a regular basis - 'genetic trend' information showing the changes, over time, of measurements of various traits like BW, WW, YW, etc.
I don't believe the Angus Assn has ever "re-set" the EPD baseline. Several years ago they did change the way Scrotal EPDs were calculated. That created quite a firestorm from at least one breeder whose high dollar bull's scrotal EPD went negative. Who maintains dairy EPDs?
Cattleman200
Well-known member
The "baseline" as it has been referred to on this post would be the BW average for a given breed I am assuming. The BW average can change from time to time in a given breed based on birthweights turned in from many different breeders. Several breeds , and a couple I am familiar with ( Angus & Limousin) actually update their EPD`s every six months based on all information turned in on calves out of all the different herd sires. Over time the more information on calves from a bull and from his daughters and sons calves turned in the more accurate the EPD`s become. While not always as accurate as we might like this is one of the best tools we have when selecting sires to use on heifers. You also have to remember that the bull is only half of the equation and also how the bred females are managed before they calve determines BW size of the calves.
Circle H Ranch
Circle H Ranch
novaman
Well-known member
I believe each breed association, same as beef. However, since Holstein dominates the population of dairy cattle, in this country anyway, whatever Holstein USA does is typically followed by the others.Frankie":ljek88t7 said:
Cattleman200
Well-known member
Updating EPDs has nothing to do with changing the baseline for the trait.
dun, what exactly are you referring to when you say "the baseline for the trait"?
Circle H Ranch
dun, what exactly are you referring to when you say "the baseline for the trait"?
Circle H Ranch
The number that the breed association uses to calculate the EPD. There is a specific number, each breed is differnt, that is used to calculate every trait in the EPDs.Cattleman200":20clqfby said:
For instance, and this is just an example, doesn;t really pertain to anything specific. A baseline lets say of 82 for BW. A bunch of numeric gyrations later and they breed association come up with a EPD +6. But it doesn;t matter what the baseline is. EPDs won;t tell you what something will weigh. If you have a bull with a BW EPD of +6 and another of -6, if the accuracy is in the high 90s it means that 66% of the time that the bulls from the first bull will weigh 12 pounds more then the ones from the second bull. But it doen;t mean that the ca;lves from one will weighe 76 and the other 88.
novaman
Well-known member
I just wanted to add to dun's post. The baseline is what the EPD's are compared against. The baseline should be the breed average and therefore animals with extremely high or low EPD's are outliers expressing that trait more than an average animal in that breed. This is the reason I don't understand why baselines for beef breeds aren't updated. If a bull "proves" a high milk EPD, for example, he will always show a high milk EPD years down the road even though the breed may have gradual improvement in milk over a span of time.
jerry27150
Well-known member
across breed adjustments breed bw ww yw milk angus 00 00 00 00 brangus 5.0 24.3 26.5 -3.1 charolais 9.6 40.9 48.7 3.5 hereford 2.7 -3.1 -12.2 -15.7 limousin 4.0 -1.3 -24.0 -12.6 red angus 2.5 -4.7 -0.7 -5.1 shorthorn 7.0 32.5 46.1 16.6 simmental 5.7 24.4 17.0 13.7
