Embryos.....Worth the cost?

[HOSS]

As I was sitting in a seminar today listening to a lecturer droning on and on I started thinking of ways to make a bigger leap forward into raising really good registered stock. In my case Gelbvieh and Balancers. I thought about the option of buying embryos and putting them into my commercial cows that are known to be top mommas. I do not even know for sure what an embryo costs (private treaty), the average success rate and what it costs for a certified embryoligist to put them in. At the end of the day is this a more economical way to go instead of buying registered cows? I know the genetics would probably be better with the embyos. Better than I could afford in buying the cow. Any thoughts?

 

[pdfangus]

hoss....
only way to answer that question for your herd is to try.

I did it ten years ago....
angus....bought five embryos from one flush from a big name local breeder who has a lot of bulls in studs.
I did not buy his best as i could not afford.....bought from a good proven cow and good proven bull.
been ten years so I am not remembering cost so well.
Cost more for the vet clinic to come and put them in than I paid for the embryos. also the cost of drugs and labor for setup of recips. Have to do a lot of recips to make sure you have enough.
but I got 100% settling and calf crop. all were heifers. I had hoped for a great bull.
I synced a bunch of recips and he chose the best five after palpation.
I still have one of those cows and she has been very good. culled one for production issues and sold three when we sold the cows.
The next year we flushed two of our own cows.
had good sucess with flushing and settling. did not have enough good recips ready so froze some. lost those when a tank went bad.
In both cases regular AI calves out of our cows were the top performers over the embryo calves.
I decided that instead of contributing to the embrologists yatch fund annually I would spend my limited dollars on the best AI bulls I could find.

now I was fifteen years into my own breeding at the time and unknowingly had built a pretty good herd of cows. Well the top half was good. I lacked depth and consistency at that time. But then the top of my herd was competing well at the test stations.

since then my son has learned how to put embryos in. If I ever bought again I would have him do it at much less cost than having an ET Vet drive two hours to me. Local vet now has songram to sex pregnancies at 60 days as well so cost are lower now.

putting commercial cows that milk to an ET use is a good step. At that time we used several commercial cows as well as some reg cows who could milk but who were not, shall we say, breed model cows.

 

[robert]

As I was sitting in a seminar today listening to a lecturer droning on and on I started thinking of ways to make a bigger leap forward into raising really good registered stock. In my case Gelbvieh and Balancers. I thought about the option of buying embryos and putting them into my commercial cows that are known to be top mommas. I do not even know for sure what an embryo costs (private treaty), the average success rate and what it costs for a certified embryoligist to put them in. At the end of the day is this a more economical way to go instead of buying registered cows? I know the genetics would probably be better with the embyos. Better than I could afford in buying the cow. Any thoughts?

we've done a fair bit of et work, not as much as some but enough to get a real handle on the costs. We put eggs into commercial cows, sometimes commercial heifers and into reg angus cows that are carriers of some defect or another. Can't comment on prices for GV eggs but Angus eggs typically bring $300 - $800 for whatever is currently defined as the 'best' genetics (though usually amounts to most popular sire currently out of a cow family that is recognized whose mama sold for some ridiculous price in a circle jerk sale) if the sire is a member of the long dead, rare and valuable kind then that can easily add a couple or five hundred to the price. Our best success from purchased embryos has been to pick up eggs out of older proven cows, maybe a flush cow of their era (for example Harmony Hill Peg 013) mated to a sire that has stood the test of time (EXT or Traveler 23-4). These have generally made the best cows over time. We figure that we are into the ET calves that are born for around $1000 - $1500 each, keep in mind that 1/2 will be bulls so you sure don't want to be making them into steers! Cost breakdown for us is around $75 / egg for home produced or $150 for purchased. $350 per pregnancy is what our ET tech charges, but nothing to freeze them, put them in or store them, his conception rates usually run >75% on frozens and >85% on fresh. He is very picky on the recips though. Many ET techs charge for freeze, storage and transfers, typically about $60 to freeze, $50-100 for transfer, so if your tech isn't getting >50% conception rates then we find we're ahead on paying per preg. We buy the calves from our commercial cooperator for market price steer + $100, and they will run about 600+lbs at weaning, right now that puts the calf at $850 minimum. Even if you put the eggs in your own cows you have to consider the value of the calf. In no way is ET a 'cheap' way to get genetics, in this market I'd say that if you can buy a good cow that calves this year and next, that works in your environment and gives you something to build with you'll be further ahead. Anymore we only flush our own proven cows, Hope this helps.

 

[jkwilson]

I think it can be, depending on your goals.

I've seen a few programs sell pretty good proven donor cows that are well up in years. I guy could buy one of those girls and afford to coddle her for a couple of years to get a few flushes out of her and do well. You can look and see what bulls she's been flushed to and how they turned out, and then maybe choose to go with the same bulls. You can even see what bulls worked with several generations of the donor's descendants. I'm considering that myself, since I don't think I now enough to choose mating matches to get really high end offspring.

I'd recommend synching cows and having recips ready on the day of the flush. I've had much better success with fresh implants, although I went 4 for 4 a couple of years ago on frozen embryos.

A big part of the success is careful heat detection. I don't like to go more than 3 hours without checking them, and I use patches so I can tell if I missed something. The embryologist often wants accurate heat times. A known "rider" in your cow herd that you know isn't in heat is a help too, as a gomer bull would be if you are a bigger operation.

 

[deenranch]

The thing about buying embryos vs a donor is that you can spread your genetics around buying embryos. If you bought a donor then you will only have offspring from her.

We have been getting 62% on frozen eggs. I've paid $250 - $725 per egg on charolais

It is the fastest way to improve your herd without breaking the bank and buying top $$$ cows...

 

[Farmgirl]

We bought 4 eggs from a very good mating. Had a vet that lived very closeby to put them in. That saved a lot on cost plus the convenience. We got 2 very nice heifers that should be great foundation cows for our little herd. We put the eggs in commercial cows that we already had. An advantage is the heifers were raised on our place, with our management from birth unlike if we had bought heifers or cows. Disposition is very important to us. I think there is a place for embryos for the little guy. Will we buy more embryos, maybe, but probably won't do it every year. Are we happy we bought the eggs, yes. Also, our vet retired so not as convenient as it was.

Good luck,
Farmgirl

 

[double v]

The program will work and you can improve your genetics fast, but your donors must be outstanding mommas and milkers or you just have a ok calf with good genetics. Evaluating your donors is key goodluck you, and welcome to the world of reg. world.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

The program will work and you can improve your genetics fast, but your donors must be outstanding mommas and milkers or you just have a ok calf with good genetics. Evaluating your donors is key goodluck you, and welcome to the world of reg. world.

Were you meaning to say the recipients need to be good mammas & milkers?

 

[double v]

correct got ahead of myself

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

We just put CIDR's in 6 cows Sunday - planned on doing 9, but 3 were standing, so vet is coming out next Sunday to implant them with natural heat. :banana:

 

[bigbull338]

hoss you need to talk to people that own donor cows an flush them.if you want to buy a donor cow an flush her you need deep pockets.id suggest you buy some embros an have them implanted in your cows.an work your way into a reg herd like that.ive got a friend that owns a bunch of donor cows an does alot of fushing an ET work.talked to them a week or so ago,an he was sending his ranch hand to NC to pick up 20 weaned ET calves.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I agree with Bigbull - I own 3 donor cows - not fun - not cheap to flush - we coop with another farm that flushes all the time & they lease our cows for 1/2 the embryos.

 

[bigbull338]

I agree with Bigbull - I own 3 donor cows - not fun - not cheap to flush - we coop with another farm that flushes all the time & they lease our cows for 1/2 the embryos.

jeanne my buddy is expecting 150 ET calves,he had some recipes that was heavy bred get out.an he had to get the cowboys to catch them.had 1 that was ready to calve,an hadnt caught her when i talked to them.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

That would have been a nightmare! If she calves out in the wild - that embryo calf is likely to be a bit wild - not what you would be looking for in a top calf :shock:
Since I don't have any commercial cattle and really don't have any bottom end cows (not bragging - just how it is), I don't put a lot of embyos in my cows. I sell most of the embryos, but at the beginning of the season (like now), cows that already cycled & aren't my very best ones, I'll set up for an embryo, then still have time to AI any that don't settle. I decided it wasn't any different than if they had produced me a steer that year. Nothing lost - lots to gain - since these cows may be good - but not as good as the donor cows.

 

[dawnrogerl]

We are trying both methods this year for the first time. We purchased some embryos that are of extreamly desirable mating. Got a good buy on both sets. Then we purchased a 8 year old donor cow that again is top of the line. She sold in 2008 for $55,000. We got her in 2011 for a few thousand because of her age. We are going to flush her a couple times and breed her back. The way I am looking at it is that I can not afford paying $10,000. each for replacement females right now but I can get them this way for about $1,200. each.

 

[hillsdown]

We are trying both methods this year for the first time. We purchased some embryos that are of extreamly desirable mating. Got a good buy on both sets. Then we purchased a 8 year old donor cow that again is top of the line. She sold in 2008 for $55,000. We got her in 2011 for a few thousand because of her age. We are going to flush her a couple times and breed her back. The way I am looking at it is that I can not afford paying $10,000. each for replacement females right now but I can get them this way for about $1,200. each.

Sure hope you had her ultra sounded before you bought her Dawn or spend any money on flushing. There is a reason that she was cheap and it usually has nothing to do with age, but fertility. No matter how cheap she is it will soon be expensive if she does not breed back let alone only gives you or two viable eggs at best when flushed.

Hoss, keep AI'ing as much as possibly ,as well as keep your top replacements from your herd for yourself bulls and heifers . Do not be scared to use a home grown PB bull of your own on your herd to get top notch balancer or purebreds. It is a lot more fun and you will be much better off in the end.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Dawn - ouch - $55,000 down to "few thousand" 3 years later.
Let's look at this on the sellers side. Purchased in 08 - (open?) flushed 5 times (most number of times you can get out of them in 1 year). 09 - bred for natural calf. 10 - flushed 5 times.
hmmm 11 - open?
So, IF, they got 10 flushes out of her, and averaged 10 embryos (nat'l avg is 5-6 I believe) - that's 100 embryos. That makes each embryo cost/worth about $5000 each - and if she averaged 20 embryos - that's still $2500/embryo. Don't think so! what a losing proposition for the seller.
11 years old is not OLD, if she WAS A GOOD DONOR. The people "in the know" in your breed, would have been bidding her up if she was a good donor. My guess is she didn't produce decent calves - or - didn't produce enough embryos to pay for herself.
I don't think ultrasounding will tell you much - other than if she is a non breeder. They can't tell you if she will only give you 1 or 25 embryos.

 

[hillsdown]

Jeanne, they purchased an 8 year old donar cow in 2011, she was 5 when she sold for 55 thous.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Jeanne, they purchased an 8 year old donar cow in 2011, she was 5 when she sold for 55 thous.

I stand corrected!! :hide: That is even more reason that she wasn't sold because of her age. 8 yrs old is YOUNG. Should be still in her mid prime.
I should have written 2008 sold for $55K and flushed 5 times ---- 2011 purchased an ?open cow? "ready to be flushed??"
Not trying to SAY it wasn't a great buy - but----- I would be a bit skeptical of the sale.

 

[JustSimmental]

My experience has been good over the years. Here again, you need better than average health and nutrition for you recips and/donor if a fresh to fresh application is used.

On fresh to fresh the ET kit will run you about $300, which will flush a Donor and transfer 10 recips. The problem there is that seldom do we have a Donor that produces 10 viable embryos per flush, but it has happened but is not the norm.

Frozen embryos are easy to implant --if you can AI you can implant a frozen embryo. Since, we dont always know the care or lack there of that the embryos were produced, this game can be frustrating as well. Like was said earlier --you have to try and see what your successes are.

I still think --for the money--- purchasing a few good PB cows annually is the best way to go. The problem that I ran into when i first started with PB simmental was that there just wasn't any good ones around. It is still pretty bad.

As I was sitting in a seminar today listening to a lecturer droning on and on I started thinking of ways to make a bigger leap forward into raising really good registered stock. In my case Gelbvieh and Balancers. I thought about the option of buying embryos and putting them into my commercial cows that are known to be top mommas. I do not even know for sure what an embryo costs (private treaty), the average success rate and what it costs for a certified embryoligist to put them in. At the end of the day is this a more economical way to go instead of buying registered cows? I know the genetics would probably be better with the embyos. Better than I could afford in buying the cow. Any thoughts?