Dumping first calf heifer calves

[Alan]

A poster here recently posted that they sell their calves out of first time heifers at about two weeks. It was an interesting thought to me simply because I find that (in my case) first calf heifers seldom produce a calf that would make into my herd. They seem to be smaller at weaning than the other calves and I end up selling them anyway. Beef bottle/young calves still bring around $400 at the sale, seems like there are a lot of positives to doing this. The first calf usually seem inferior to the others but by the time the cow drops her second calf most of the time it's a calf I watch it's development for possible herd replacement stock.

Any thoughts?

 

[dun]

We've found that by the time they calve as 2 year olds FCH calves have pretty much caught up in growth and by their second calf there isn;t any difference.
Bu we don;t use freshener bulls on our heifers, we usaully use the same bulls that we use on cows.

 

[Alan]

We've found that by the time they calve as 2 year olds FCH calves have pretty much caught up in growth and by their second calf there isn;t any difference.
Bu we don;t use freshener bulls on our heifers, we usaully use the same bulls that we use on cows.

Do you have any extra concerns breeding these smaller heifers. I tend to stay away from breeding anything under around 700lbs. Do most of yours make a safe breeding weight at 15 months.

 

[dun]

We've nevr had to breed a 700 pound heifer. By the time they're 14-15 months they are in the 800-850 range. We've selected for genetics that work in our environment and under our (mis) management scheme. Post 45 days weaning they go out with the cows and stay there.

 

[Ky hills]

That may work better for some, but for me, the heifer's calves do pretty well for the most part in comparison to cow's. Most of my heifers tend to milk well, and it could damage their udders. I supplement them with some feed through breeding, so they rebreed fairly well.

 

[Alan]

Understandable, I currently have a heifer calf out of a first time black baldy heifer. She was the first born this season and already well behind the rest. When prices were real high I dumped most of my herd and kept the best. This black baldy heifer is the first replacement heifer out of the rebuilding stage. We'll see how her second calf does.

 

[dun]

Understandable, I currently have a heifer calf out of a first time black baldy heifer. She was the first born this season and already well behind the rest. When prices were real high I dumped most of my herd and kept the best. This black baldy heifer is the first replacement heifer out of the rebuilding stage. We'll see how her second calf does.

Maybe the problem was your selection criteria for the heifer you kept.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

This is another one of those "your mileage may vary" kind of things. We have NO PROBLEM keeping heifer calves from two year olds. Yes, they tend to wean off a little smaller, but catch up by yearling time frame and there is no noticable difference from the first calf heifer females and other females by breeding age. BUT, we use AI sires on all of our cattle, and I know what to expect in the growth of the calf by doing that. Here is a good example: This calf was out of a 21 month old heifer. Not only did the first calf heifer breed back early (this calf was born in November, the cow is due the first part of October this fall), but she weaned off this calf at 551 pounds at 189 days of age (no creep). Not bad. We just weighed them the other day, she was 710 pounds and was in standing heat last week. Would you throw away this calf?

Of course, not all turn out great, but with a little feed those heifers catch up to their contemporaries and do just fine. We have many first calf heifers that went on to make great cows, and their first calf heifers did the same. It is more about genetics than it is about birth order.

 

[Alan]

Understandable, I currently have a heifer calf out of a first time black baldy heifer. She was the first born this season and already well behind the rest. When prices were real high I dumped most of my herd and kept the best. This black baldy heifer is the first replacement heifer out of the rebuilding stage. We'll see how her second calf does.

Maybe the problem was your selection criteria for the heifer you kept.

:lol: :lol: how did you know I kept her because she was the only heifer I got that calving season. :lol: She was the only heifer, but her mom is a great calf producing cow and the black baldy looked very nice and still looks good, but obviously not raising this one well.

 

[Alan]

This is another one of those "your mileage may vary" kind of things. We have NO PROBLEM keeping heifer calves from two year olds. Yes, they tend to wean off a little smaller, but catch up by yearling time frame and there is no noticable difference from the first calf heifer females and other females by breeding age. BUT, we use AI sires on all of our cattle, and I know what to expect in the growth of the calf by doing that. Here is a good example: This calf was out of a 21 month old heifer. Not only did the first calf heifer breed back early (this calf was born in November, the cow is due the first part of October this fall), but she weaned off this calf at 551 pounds at 189 days of age (no creep). Not bad. We just weighed them the other day, she was 710 pounds and was in standing heat last week. Would you throw away this calf?

Of course, not all turn out great, but with a little feed those heifers catch up to their contemporaries and do just fine. We have many first calf heifers that went on to make great cows, and their first calf heifers did the same. It is more about genetics than it is about birth order.

Click on the wrong pic? :lol:

 

[dun]

Understandable, I currently have a heifer calf out of a first time black baldy heifer. She was the first born this season and already well behind the rest. When prices were real high I dumped most of my herd and kept the best. This black baldy heifer is the first replacement heifer out of the rebuilding stage. We'll see how her second calf does.

Maybe the problem was your selection criteria for the heifer you kept.

:lol: :lol: how did you know I kept her because she was the only heifer I got that calving season. :lol: She was the only heifer, but her mom is a great calf producing cow and the black baldy looked very nice and still looks good, but obviously not raising this one well.

First off, it isn;t just the momma that makes a difference, the sire is in there also. Not all breedings that "should" produce breeding quialty animals do. The luck of the draw or just how the genes line up in the individual. Of our spring cows that claved, we have 11 heifers and 2 steers. Their sire was pretty darn nice as a yearling but his calves haven;t panned out. All of his calves will be going to the feeders at weaning.

 

[Alan]

Makes sense about genes lining up, the right nick I call it. The calves are all out of the same BA bull, I have the one black baldy first time mom and the rest are straight Hereford so there may be also me f1 vigor playing into it also. Meaning part of it may be the baldy calf may not be as far behind as the other calve are F1 crosses and are a little ahead of the curve.

 

[dun]

We had one cow that we AIed to the same bull 5 years in a row. The first 3 were great calves. Number 4 was just a poor doing booger that didn;t resemble any of the others, although we weaned just as heavy, just not muscled the same. Number 5 was back to being just like the first 3.
That's why I don;t really care about using flush mates. I prefer to go by the individual

 

[Ebenezer]

There will always be cull with heifers. Too many genes; too little time.

Heifers milk too much? Your fault for using too much milk in breeding selection.
First calf heifers? Research some years back disproved discounting them and actually proved them to be better forages and scrappers due to their upbringing.
Heifers not breed back? Either/or/and too much milk (above), too much bull (growth) or too little feed.

We do not expect kids to play with matches, guns, knives, drive cars or stick their hands in the fire. A heifer is an asset and a responsibility, just like a child. Don't spoil them but also recognize that they have pressures and stresses that cows do not have. It is not about opinions- it is an economical decision to be sure that heifers have the chance to turn into productive cows or else you just lost money.

Just saying.

 

[Banjo]

Ebenezer » Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:53 am

We do not expect kids to play with matches, guns, knives, drive cars or stick their hands in the fire. A heifer is an asset and a responsibility, just like a child. Don't spoil them but also recognize that they have pressures and stresses that cows do not have. It is not about opinions- it is an economical decision to be sure that heifers have the chance to turn into productive cows or else you just lost money.

What do you mean here exactly?

 

[gizmom]

Alan

We manage our first calf heifers differently than mature cows. First calf heifers and cows having their second calf are run together. This group is fed Brewers grain daily. All calves are measured within this contemporary group so your comparing apples to apples as far as management. The calves out of this group are still not going to be as powerful as calves out of the mature cow group that only gets grass and minerals but they do grow well enough to retain some to develop as bulls and to retain heifers. If you put young cattle in with mature cows they get pushed out from everything by the mature cows. We started this practice in 2007 and the difference in the quality of the two and three year olds calf crop has been worth the extra effort in management.

Gizmom

 

[angus9259]

Do to my limited space, I'm getting to the point where I will get rid of a heifer that doesn't produce a good calf and breed back the first time on pretty similar feed. Am I sacrificing some animals that may be perfectly good on the second calf? Probably. I'm sure what I"m doing is not ideal, but just not enough room to find out. You get one chance here.

That said, stripping a calf to let someone else bottle feed it to let the heifer keep at it doesn't pencil either - for me - because if she can't do it - she can't stay.

 

[Rafter S]

I don't sell them at 2 weeks old, but I do sell them at 60-90 days. The heifers almost always breed back right away, which means they'll be in line with the mature cows, and it let's them finish growing without the calf pulling them down.

This is one of those things that works well for me but might not fit everyone's program. Kind of like calving in November and December, which I also do.

 

[Ebenezer]

Ebenezer » Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:53 am

We do not expect kids to play with matches, guns, knives, drive cars or stick their hands in the fire. A heifer is an asset and a responsibility, just like a child. Don't spoil them but also recognize that they have pressures and stresses that cows do not have. It is not about opinions- it is an economical decision to be sure that heifers have the chance to turn into productive cows or else you just lost money.

What do you mean here exactly?

it is an economical decision to be sure that heifers have the chance to turn into productive cows or else you just lost money.
A heifer is not a cow. A kid is not an adult. Let a heifer mess up because you want her to be a cow and you mess up. If a heifer is genetically the cow that you want for the next 10 she will have greater needs as a 2 YO. Support her and she will be there later. Set her up for failure due to a "we raise them tuff" policy and you will come out the loser. Once she is over the growth/first calf/milk/breed back critical time she can take more abuse from the environment. At 2 YO and calving, her defenses are down.

Heifers that can meet a average cow diet and support and function to remain in the herd will bring less into the herd than the current average mature cow's performance. I see it as downward spiral.

 

[Banjo]

Ebenezer » Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:53 am

We do not expect kids to play with matches, guns, knives, drive cars or stick their hands in the fire. A heifer is an asset and a responsibility, just like a child. Don't spoil them but also recognize that they have pressures and stresses that cows do not have. It is not about opinions- it is an economical decision to be sure that heifers have the chance to turn into productive cows or else you just lost money.

What do you mean here exactly?

it is an economical decision to be sure that heifers have the chance to turn into productive cows or else you just lost money.
A heifer is not a cow. A kid is not an adult. Let a heifer mess up because you want her to be a cow and you mess up. If a heifer is genetically the cow that you want for the next 10 she will have greater needs as a 2 YO. Support her and she will be there later. Set her up for failure due to a "we raise them tuff" policy and you will come out the loser. Once she is over the growth/first calf/milk/breed back critical time she can take more abuse from the environment. At 2 YO and calving, her defenses are down.

Heifers that can meet a average cow diet and support and function to remain in the herd will bring less into the herd than the current average mature cow's performance. I see it as downward spiral.

Wouldn't you have to have two separate herds? A mature cow herd and heifer herd? I assume you are feeding them differently.