Dex/Lute Question

[ClinchValley86]

I have a couple questions about each drug.

1 - What is the correct DEX dose to abort. The stuff I have is 4mg/ml. I am thinking 5cc which would be 20 MG. That sound right?

2 - Can I use a bottle that was first punctured around 12 months ago?

3 - The lute packaging says to discard 12 weeks after the bottle is punctured. Is this something I need to pay attention to? My bottle was opened around July 4th.

4 - Give these two shots in the muscle in the hip? Or in the neck?

5 - Is there a slaughter withdrawal period with these? Can't find the info I need. And its a Sunday. Can't call my vet.

I am about to get some girls up and give them a "just in case." They're going to processor early 2022. Two or three of them do look bred to me.

I had a perfectly finished beef die 2 days before her processor date from trying to calve. But was too fat and calf was huge. I swear I thought she had never bred. Animals rode her like she was coming in heat once a month. Don't ever want that to happen again.

Thanks to all.

 

[Hpacres440p]

If they "look" bred isn't that too late already?

 

[WB Angus]

If they "look" bred isn't that too late already?

I agree with Hp. We had to give a shot to a heifer this week because she got in with the bull but its my understanding that you need to give the shot within a couple of days of them getting bred. My understanding is the shot is supposed to jumpstart their menstrual cycle and the hope is that it causes them to cycle.

 

[farmerjan]

If you abort them after they are in the 4 month range, you run a greater risk of losing the animal. I wouldn't abort anything that is "looking like" it is bred. Best bet is to get the vet to preg check them and then you know EXACTLY what you are dealing with. And if this has happened more than once, then you need to reassess the way you are handling them and get them away from a bull sooner and as matter of course to give shots to make sure they are not bred as soon as they are separated from possibly being bred. We have several that got separated late and have had 3 turn up bred. But we were not feeding them out so are not fat and will hopefully calve without any problems.

 

[kenny thomas]

Never, ever, ever, ever give the shot in the hip. Always in the neck.
No withdrawal time listed for Dex or Lute except for milk.
Google Withdrawal Time Chart and it will cover everything. I can't seem to post it from my phone.

 

[ClinchValley86]

If you abort them after they are in the 4 month range, you run a greater risk of losing the animal. I wouldn't abort anything that is "looking like" it is bred. Best bet is to get the vet to preg check them and then you know EXACTLY what you are dealing with. And if this has happened more than once, then you need to reassess the way you are handling them and get them away from a bull sooner and as matter of course to give shots to make sure they are not bred as soon as they are separated from possibly being bred. We have several that got separated late and have had 3 turn up bred. But we were not feeding them out so are not fat and will hopefully calve without any problems.

These are bought animals.

 

[ClinchValley86]

If they "look" bred isn't that too late already?

I was under the impression that they'd evacuate whatever is in there.

Pretty sure I've read of people inducing labor a week ahead of the due date in show animals so the calf isn't so huge.

What exactly do you mean by too late already?

 

[ClinchValley86]

I agree with Hp. We had to give a shot to a heifer this week because she got in with the bull but its my understanding that you need to give the shot within a couple of days of them getting bred. My understanding is the shot is supposed to jumpstart their menstrual cycle and the hope is that it causes them to cycle.

To my understanding, you want to wait 2 or 4 weeks after being bred to hit them with the lute. I am wrong a lot though.

 

[farmerjan]

Inducing labor a week or 2 before due date is a whole different ball game than trying to abort in the 5-8 month time frame. They often will not properly dialate when trying to abort.... hence the aborting when not far along so that the body passes it off and the fetus is very small. I do not know all the exact details. But if trying to induce labor you are trying to get dialation and ready the birth canal for birth. And that close to actual due dates has the animals' body getting ready for the birthing process anyway. Hormone changes and all. My vet has always said to give lute and then 2 weeks later give another shot of lute to heifers that have come off their mommas if I have any inclination they were possibly bred by the bull. You have to have them at least 10-14 days post breeding for the lute to cause the hormone shift and to get them to come back into heat. If we got the bulls out after 75 days breeding..... 99.9% of the heifers would have been too young to have even thought about coming into heat. But often the bulls go out with the cows to be bred back, with 60-90 day old calves, and stay there until we get them back up in late fall to wean calves and preg check the cows. Some places it is just not workable to get the bulls out . It would get our calving windows down and we would probably do a better job of weaning and then marketing calves. But with working other jobs and many other demands, several places the bulls go in and stay for 6 months.

To use lute you have to understand the cycles too. It does no good to give lute 2 days after a possible breeding because of the hormone influence. Lute is used to cause the CL to shrink and dissipate so that the ovary will produce another egg. If there is a CL, it causes the ovary to stop producing eggs and for the uterus to have higher levels of the pregnancy hormone, to allow the egg to implant and grow. If there is no egg to implant, then the hormones "switch" and the one that kicks the ovary into producing eggs takes over, the blood lining is sloughed off then, and a new egg is produced and the whole cycle starts over. If you use lute, it causes the pregnancy hormone to recede, therefore the egg that may have implanted in the uterus will be shed off in the process and the ovary will kick in and a new egg will be formed. One is estrogen and the other is progesterone.

Perhaps when you first get these heifers, you need to have them preg checked and then make decisions from there. If they are guaranteed open, then you have recourse. But if you are just buying them, with no guarantees, then you need to reconsider how to handle them when they first get to your place. Every place that I have know that buys heifers to feed out will go through some sort of lute protocol from day one to make sure they are not bred unless they are spayed heifers.

 

[ClinchValley86]

Inducing labor a week or 2 before due date is a whole different ball game than trying to abort in the 5-8 month time frame. They often will not properly dialate when trying to abort.... hence the aborting when not far along so that the body passes it off and the fetus is very small. I do not know all the exact details. But if trying to induce labor you are trying to get dialation and ready the birth canal for birth. And that close to actual due dates has the animals' body getting ready for the birthing process anyway. Hormone changes and all. My vet has always said to give lute and then 2 weeks later give another shot of lute to heifers that have come off their mommas if I have any inclination they were possibly bred by the bull. You have to have them at least 10-14 days post breeding for the lute to cause the hormone shift and to get them to come back into heat. If we got the bulls out after 75 days breeding..... 99.9% of the heifers would have been too young to have even thought about coming into heat. But often the bulls go out with the cows to be bred back, with 60-90 day old calves, and stay there until we get them back up in late fall to wean calves and preg check the cows. Some places it is just not workable to get the bulls out . It would get our calving windows down and we would probably do a better job of weaning and then marketing calves. But with working other jobs and many other demands, several places the bulls go in and stay for 6 months.

To use lute you have to understand the cycles too. It does no good to give lute 2 days after a possible breeding because of the hormone influence. Lute is used to cause the CL to shrink and dissipate so that the ovary will produce another egg. If there is a CL, it causes the ovary to stop producing eggs and for the uterus to have higher levels of the pregnancy hormone, to allow the egg to implant and grow. If there is no egg to implant, then the hormones "switch" and the one that kicks the ovary into producing eggs takes over, the blood lining is sloughed off then, and a new egg is produced and the whole cycle starts over. If you use lute, it causes the pregnancy hormone to recede, therefore the egg that may have implanted in the uterus will be shed off in the process and the ovary will kick in and a new egg will be formed. One is estrogen and the other is progesterone.

Perhaps when you first get these heifers, you need to have them preg checked and then make decisions from there. If they are guaranteed open, then you have recourse. But if you are just buying them, with no guarantees, then you need to reconsider how to handle them when they first get to your place. Every place that I have know that buys heifers to feed out will go through some sort of lute protocol from day one to make sure they are not bred unless they are spayed heifers.

I am always learning, and unfortunately it is usually an expensive lesson. So I really appreciate you sharing that information.

I have asked my vet about spaying heifers for me. He looked at me funny and said he doesn't believe in it or something to that affect. I need to find another vet that will do that sort of thing. That would nip this problem in the bud.

 

[kenny thomas]

I am always learning, and unfortunately it is usually an expensive lesson. So I really appreciate you sharing that information.

I have asked my vet about spaying heifers for me. He looked at me funny and said he doesn't believe in it or something to that affect. I need to find another vet that will do that sort of thing. That would nip this problem in the bud.

Spaying can be done at your farm by a vet here. The actual spaying is pretty cheap, $3-$6 according to the numbers and the vet.
Only issue I have been told about if they need to be spayed before 400-450lb or before they begin to cycle. The extra blood flow after they get bigger makes it a concern of bleeding too much.
Would like to hear from someone that spays.

 

[TCRanch]

Excellent response, @farmerjan.

I agree with having them preg checked so you'll know if/when and can plan accordingly. If one is already in her 2nd trimester, I'd switch to Plan B, don't fatten her, and let her calve. Your vet can also pelvic measure to give you a better idea whether to anticipate problems. Obviously, you wouldn't know the calving ease of the bull, but if she scores 132, you know you'll probably have to pull, regardless of CED.

An alternative to having heifers spayed, is adding melengestrol acetate (MGA) to the feed, which suppresses estrus.

 

[SBMF 2015]

I have a couple questions about each drug.

1 - What is the correct DEX dose to abort. The stuff I have is 4mg/ml. I am thinking 5cc which would be 20 MG. That sound right?

2 - Can I use a bottle that was first punctured around 12 months ago?

3 - The lute packaging says to discard 12 weeks after the bottle is punctured. Is this something I need to pay attention to? My bottle was opened around July 4th.

4 - Give these two shots in the muscle in the hip? Or in the neck?

5 - Is there a slaughter withdrawal period with these? Can't find the info I need. And its a Sunday. Can't call my vet.

I am about to get some girls up and give them a "just in case." They're going to processor early 2022. Two or three of them do look bred to me.

I had a perfectly finished beef die 2 days before her processor date from trying to calve. But was too fat and calf was huge. I swear I thought she had never bred. Animals rode her like she was coming in heat once a month. Don't ever want that to happen again.

Thanks to all.

1. I give 20cc of dex
2. Yes, it will be fine.
3. It will be fine.
4. ONLY IN THE NECK
5. If they go to the butcher in 2022 they'll be fine.

Preg checking would be best.
Keep a close eye on them. Anything you dex will kick a calf with in 36hrs. If you need to help one deliver you can.

Lut needs to be given at least 7days after a suspected breeding. Given sooner or actually protects the embryo.

 

[Lucky]

I have a couple questions about each drug.

1 - What is the correct DEX dose to abort. The stuff I have is 4mg/ml. I am thinking 5cc which would be 20 MG. That sound right?

2 - Can I use a bottle that was first punctured around 12 months ago?

3 - The lute packaging says to discard 12 weeks after the bottle is punctured. Is this something I need to pay attention to? My bottle was opened around July 4th.

4 - Give these two shots in the muscle in the hip? Or in the neck?

5 - Is there a slaughter withdrawal period with these? Can't find the info I need. And its a Sunday. Can't call my vet.

I am about to get some girls up and give them a "just in case." They're going to processor early 2022. Two or three of them do look bred to me.

I had a perfectly finished beef die 2 days before her processor date from trying to calve. But was too fat and calf was huge. I swear I thought she had never bred. Animals rode her like she was coming in heat once a month. Don't ever want that to happen again.

Thanks to all.

I had a train wreck with a group of heifers one year. We thought there was no way they could be bred but 5 where and we ended up losing 2 of them. Since then I give all my feeder heifers a shot of Dex at fall weaning and again at spring worming. I've never had an issue or noticed any problems from giving Dex. We send about 40 to OKC every year and guarantee them open too. Never had one come back since we started the Dex routine. You can't watch these cattle 24/7 so it's always possible for one to turn up bred.

 

[SBMF 2015]

I have asked my vet about spaying heifers for me. He looked at me funny and said he doesn't believe in it or something to that affect. I need to find another vet that will do that sort of thing. That would nip this problem in the bud.

Unless you live in big feed lot country your vet may not even have the tools to spay hfrs. We have 3 large animal vet clinics in a 5mile circle. If I had to guess, none of these vets have ever spayed a hfr.

 

[CowsRcuddly]

I was under the impression that they'd evacuate whatever is in there.

Pretty sure I've read of people inducing labor a week ahead of the due date in show animals so the calf isn't so huge.

What exactly do you mean by too late already?

Inducing a cow a week before their due date is DIFFERENT than trying to abort a short term bred animal. Inducing labor is used when you are worried that the calf will be large, either due to genetics or a lot of time due to using IVF embryo work. When inducing, you use Dexamethazone to help the lungs of the developing calf along with a prostaglandin (Lutalyse or Estrumate) to induce. You don't use Dex if you are just aborting a pregnancy. However, it is recommended NOT to abort a cow past 4 months bred. You only need 5cc of Lutalyse to abort a cow 100 days bred. It may take up to 35 days for her to abort however.

 

[SBMF 2015]

Inducing a cow a week before their due date is DIFFERENT than trying to abort a short term bred animal. Inducing labor is used when you are worried that the calf will be large, either due to genetics or a lot of time due to using IVF embryo work. When inducing, you use Dexamethazone to help the lungs of the developing calf along with a prostaglandin (Lutalyse or Estrumate) to induce. You don't use Dex if you are just aborting a pregnancy. However, it is recommended NOT to abort a cow past 4 months bred. You only need 5cc of Lutalyse to abort a cow 100 days bred. It may take up to 35 days for her to abort however.

If you Dex bred cattle they essentially abort. At four months or 275days the animal and the Dex don't know the difference. When ever I come across an oops bought feeder hfr I just Dex them no lut. 36hrs or less and you'll have a calf. I've had live unassisted calves born and I've jacked out dead ones. Never lost a fat hfr. These are feed lot heifers. It doesn't matter if they ever cycle again, that isn't their purpose. Lut alone is not a guarantee to abort 2nd and 3rd trimester pregnancies.

 

[ClinchValley86]

Thanks all to the conversation. I've learned a good bit from this one.

 

[ClinchValley86]

1. I give 20cc of dex
2. Yes, it will be fine.
3. It will be fine.
4. ONLY IN THE NECK
5. If they go to the butcher in 2022 they'll be fine.

Preg checking would be best.
Keep a close eye on them. Anything you dex will kick a calf with in 36hrs. If you need to help one deliver you can.

Lut needs to be given at least 7days after a suspected breeding. Given sooner or actually protects the embryo.

You give 20 units in a springs? Or do you do equivalent of 20 MG of dex per shot? What I have is 4mg per ml. 30 units would be 80 MG. Just clarifying.

 

[SBMF 2015]

You give 20 units in a springs? Or do you do equivalent of 20 MG of dex per shot? What I have is 4mg per ml. 30 units would be 80 MG. Just clarifying.

I looked at my bottle of Dex. It's 2mg. So each ml contains 2mg of dexamethasone. If yours contains 4mg then you should be able to give 10 mI and get the results you want. I give 20ml. Dex is cheap, I wouldn't be afraid to give 20mI of your 4mg Dex.