Day Help Abusing Our Cattle

[Spot & Bubby]

I'm going to say ugly things about people who work cows on horseback. I don't mean *everyone* who works cows on horseback. This is a rant, my language will lean toward profane. Any mention of violence committed by me is pure fantasy and nothing I normally practice or condone.

Last night, I went to bed ****ing pissed off. I woke up pissed off. All I can think about is beating a grown ass man with a pipe and giving him a long, jolt of the hotshot to his neck.

Yesterday. We weaned and palpated 200+ calves and 200+ cows. We hired help, the same guy we always hire. This guy is primarily a horse trainer. He boards and trains horses. He also trains people to work from horses and he hires out to work with cattle. When working cattle, his crew consists of his employees and/or his trainees who get paid for their time and give the guy a cut of the pay. The work from horses the guy is being paid to train and he charges the owners for the time the horses are working the cows. He's making money at least three ways when he does day work with cattle. Good for him.

My general complaint is that those guysthy to do everything from horseback, even in the tiniest pens. No one wants to get off their horse. Cattle get agitated. I'm always worried someone on foot (me) will get hurt.

Back to yesterday.owas with the crew working calves at their new home. Bossman was transporting the calves. The *cowboys* worked the cows through the pens. The vet palpated. Calves finished first and we went back to the cows. I was making a video of the cows in the pen, talking to them like little babies, for TikTok. I got home last night and started to put video clips together and saw one of the cowboys abusing the cows in the background. ABUSING. He was on foot (surprisingly) unneccesarily hot shotting ALL of the cows in the alley. When HE wasn't quick enough to stop a cow he'd already zapped and got hit by the stop bar (a pipe), he jammed the hot shot in her neck, by her ear, and sent her reeling. She went as far back as the next cowboy (on a horse IN THE ALLEY) where she turned circles, shaking her head for MINUTES before she was off camera.

We do not treat our cows like that and we use a hot shot, gently, as a last resort. When we got to the pens they were using, about 5 or 6 cows went down in the chute almost in a row. We almost lost one. I think they were in a panic from what was going on in the alley, but I couldn't see because of the vet's truck.

I sent the video to Bossman. Those guys are supposed to work another set for us tomorrow... Our senior citizen set.

I'm so ****ing mad right now. Bossman is going to talk to the horse trainer, but he said I can speak on it as well.

 

[Brute 23]

That is very frustrating. They need to be fired. They will not change.

Sounds like you have done all you can do. Hopefully your boss has the balls to get it done.

Maybe you need to stand by them and say every time you hit a cow, I hit you, so make them count.

 

[Dsth]

I feel your pain. if you are like me, I breed and keep replacements based a lot on docility. when you see people working your cattle and they miss treat or in your case abuse your animals, it is hard to justify. I hope your bossman and his crew are more respectful of your cattle if you have the same crew return today.

 

[SBMF 2015]

Not condoning it at all, but what happened before you started filming? Did the cow kick the guy when he was loading her in the alley? Some people tend to let their emotions get in the way of good stockmenship.
HotShots, sorting sticks, dogs, and horses are valuable all tools in the right circumstance, all can be over used by people who just want to play cowboy and have a story to tell at the end of the day.
It’s to bad you couldn’t have called them out while it was happening.

 

[Ky hills]

Some people think they are experts and they really ain't. Like y'all, we use a hotshot as a last resort.
I agree with @Brute 23 those are not folks that y’all need working around your cattle, and they are not likely to change.
If anything they would just resent being called out for their behavior and become even harder to work with.
The thing is people like that come in once or a few times and make a mess of things that y’all will have to deal with every time you are around the cattle. Rough handling like that can quickly make calm cattle wild, difficult and dangerous to work with. It’s not worth it.
We won’t have anything to do with one of the area stockyards, because of how they handle cattle.
We went to a sale a few years ago and where we were sitting we could see the folks in the back burning the cattle up with hotshots. The cattle were all coming into the ring like runaway freight trains. then slipping and falling.
We were just watching a sale neither selling or buying but there to potentially see about buying and getting a feel for that yards.
If I wasn’t mad enough about how they did things, I had been thinking those idiots are going to cause some calf to get hurt. Sure enough they were selling a large group, over 100 big steers weighing around 1000 pounds. They were crowding up coming into the sale ring and the idiots were burning the ones behind up with hotshots, the calves started frantically jumping over the ones in front of them, and one of those big steers went down and they were still hotshotting steers over him. After they’d got them in the ring I could see the calf could not stand up and was broke down. No doubt he had to be put down and dragged out, all because of the insane handling.

 

[bird dog]

I have had the same problem that KY mentioned. I quit one sale barn all together because of the unnecessary use of hot shots.
The cowboys that Spot mentioned would never see my place again.

Maybe its my old age, but the cattlemen I respect most these days have a 4 wheeler in their trailer.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

That is very frustrating. They need to be fired. They will not change.

Sounds like you have done all you can do. Hopefully your boss has the balls to get it done.

Maybe you need to stand by them and say every time you hit a cow, I hit you, so make them count.

I'd like to just walk up to him and jab him under the ear with a hot shot. Then explain how I expect our cows to be treated.

I feel your pain. if you are like me, I breed and keep replacements based a lot on docility. when you see people working your cattle and they miss treat or in your case abuse your animals, it is hard to justify. I hope your bossman and his crew are more respectful of your cattle if you have the same crew return today.

"Bossman" is my boss. He's going to talk to the horse trainer about his hand. He says if that hand shows up tomorrow for the senior set, I can say whatever I want. I don't like confrontation, but I cannot wait to talk to this dude.

Not condoning it at all, but what happened before you started filming? Did the cow kick the guy when he was loading her in the alley? Some people tend to let their emotions get in the way of good stockmenship.
HotShots, sorting sticks, dogs, and horses are valuable all tools in the right circumstance, all can be over used by people who just want to play cowboy and have a story to tell at the end of the day.
It’s to bad you couldn’t have called them out while it was happening.

THIS COW, I can promise you, was not unruly without provocation. Whatever happened when we were working calves at a different location, but a section of our sorting pen was almost torn downwhile we were gone. I was standing in that hole talking to the cows because no one else seemed to notice a cow that got her head and a leg out of it. That's where I was filming the cows and got the hot shot incident in the background. He was hot shotting cows in the alley to move them forward and she moved up before he could stop her with a bar. That bar knocked the **** out of him and I know it hurt, but that was his fault, not hers. If it WAS her fault, it was STILL abuse and overkill. He can't even claim frustration from the long day with the cows... He was horseback penning easy calves with us until 20 minutes before. Our cows are as docile as kittens.

I WISH I could share the video here, but YouTube wouldn't allow the content.

Some people think they are experts and they really ain't. Like y'all, we use a hotshot as a last resort.
I agree with @Brute 23 those are not folks that y’all need working around your cattle, and they are not likely to change.
If anything they would just resent being called out for their behavior and become even harder to work with.
The thing is people like that come in once or a few times and make a mess of things that y’all will have to deal with every time you are around the cattle. Rough handling like that can quickly make calm cattle wild, difficult and dangerous to work with. It’s not worth it.
We won’t have anything to do with one of the area stockyards, because of how they handle cattle.
We went to a sale a few years ago and where we were sitting we could see the folks in the back burning the cattle up with hotshots. The cattle were all coming into the ring like runaway freight trains. then slipping and falling.
We were just watching a sale neither selling or buying but there to potentially see about buying and getting a feel for that yards.
If I wasn’t mad enough about how they did things, I had been thinking those idiots are going to cause some calf to get hurt. Sure enough they were selling a large group, over 100 big steers weighing around 1000 pounds. They were crowding up coming into the sale ring and the idiots were burning the ones behind up with hotshots, the calves started frantically jumping over the ones in front of them, and one of those big steers went down and they were still hotshotting steers over him. After they’d got them in the ring I could see the calf could not stand up and was broke down. No doubt he had to be put down and dragged out, all because of the insane handling.

That's terrible! I cannot Stand mistreatment of ANY animal. Boils my blood. Knowing how a person tells me everything I need to know about them. The issue of him coming back tomorrow is up to Bossman, but if he hot shots one of the girls tomorrow She's likely to die. They are older cows that we saw when they were delivered that they couldn't go two years. Old, frail and broke mouthed. Most of them will be called, but they deserve dignity.

I have had the same problem that KY mentioned. I quit one sale barn all together because of the unnecessary use of hot shots.
The cowboys that Spot mentioned would never see my place again.

Maybe its my old age, but the cattlemen I respect most these days have a 4 wheeler in their trailer.

Bossman heard yesterday that a horse guy with more community respect is running a crew now. Will probably hire him next time.

 

[MACVSOG]

i hesitate to comment as this is past my time. "in the day" if i witnessed such the bossman, et.al would have been summarily dismissed. they would have left looking over their shoulder(s) perhaps with a limp. i trust the next day's work will have a better result for you.

 

[farmerjan]

I would tell bossman that the ones coming CAN NOT use hot shots on this group of cows... NO HOTSHOTS allowed period.

 

[Travlr]

I'm going to say ugly things about people who work cows on horseback. I don't mean *everyone* who works cows on horseback. This is a rant, my language will lean toward profane. Any mention of violence committed by me is pure fantasy and nothing I normally practice or condone.

Last night, I went to bed ****ing pissed off. I woke up pissed off. All I can think about is beating a grown ass man with a pipe and giving him a long, jolt of the hotshot to his neck.

Yesterday. We weaned and palpated 200+ calves and 200+ cows. We hired help, the same guy we always hire. This guy is primarily a horse trainer. He boards and trains horses. He also trains people to work from horses and he hires out to work with cattle. When working cattle, his crew consists of his employees and/or his trainees who get paid for their time and give the guy a cut of the pay. The work from horses the guy is being paid to train and he charges the owners for the time the horses are working the cows. He's making money at least three ways when he does day work with cattle. Good for him.

My general complaint is that those guysthy to do everything from horseback, even in the tiniest pens. No one wants to get off their horse. Cattle get agitated. I'm always worried someone on foot (me) will get hurt.

Back to yesterday.owas with the crew working calves at their new home. Bossman was transporting the calves. The *cowboys* worked the cows through the pens. The vet palpated. Calves finished first and we went back to the cows. I was making a video of the cows in the pen, talking to them like little babies, for TikTok. I got home last night and started to put video clips together and saw one of the cowboys abusing the cows in the background. ABUSING. He was on foot (surprisingly) unneccesarily hot shotting ALL of the cows in the alley. When HE wasn't quick enough to stop a cow he'd already zapped and got hit by the stop bar (a pipe), he jammed the hot shot in her neck, by her ear, and sent her reeling. She went as far back as the next cowboy (on a horse IN THE ALLEY) where she turned circles, shaking her head for MINUTES before she was off camera.

We do not treat our cows like that and we use a hot shot, gently, as a last resort. When we got to the pens they were using, about 5 or 6 cows went down in the chute almost in a row. We almost lost one. I think they were in a panic from what was going on in the alley, but I couldn't see because of the vet's truck.

I sent the video to Bossman. Those guys are supposed to work another set for us tomorrow... Our senior citizen set.

I'm so ****ing mad right now. Bossman is going to talk to the horse trainer, but he said I can speak on it as well.

Take away the hotshots. Real cattlemen don't need them.

 

[Texas G@l]

I would tell bossman that the ones coming CAN NOT use hot shots on this group of cows... NO HOTSHOTS allowed period.

We have a hot shot but honestly can't remember the last time it was used..... batteries are probably dead.

Fire that group of day workers and hire another with the understanding of how the cattle will be worked.

 

[Brute 23]

If you have to confront them be clear and to the point. Look the person dead in the eye and tell them... the next time you beat or hot shot a cow unnecessarily... you are gone. Then ask... are we clear?

Some times they will cry with excuses... just reply, if you are not sure what to do, stop and we will come help you.

Say no more... and no less... but make sure your boss will back you 100%. Don't get in an argument or shouting match or any thing like that. It's a sign of weakness. People who call the shots, don't have to argue.

 

[Little Joe]

I own a hotshot but never even carry it to the lot with me, everything is handled using a sorting stick mostly to allow more reach for me.

 

[Rafter S]

Take away the hotshots. Real cattlemen don't need them.

I agree. I don't claim to be a "real cattle man," but the only time I'll use one is if an animal (usually a bull) is standing in the loading chute and refuses to get in the trailer. Even then, I'll just give them a bump in the rear to get them moving.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

A hotshot is a tool like any other, on its own its not a bad evil thing. Put the wrong person in control of it and it can become a "bad" tool.

 

[Brute 23]

Blaming the hotshot is like blaming the horse or pipe. You can't take it all away. Just get people that know how to use them.

If I have people working the chute area I like my flags for pushing and sorting. I always have at least one hot shot along the chute and infact I will not load with out one, even though I load all the time with out using it. When I am loading by myself, I take my 6' hot shot because it doubles as a sorting stick but I have the heat if I need it.

 

[Travlr]

The most useful tool I've found for sorting cattle is one of those orange plastic highway markers they use to show where the road is for snowplows... with a plastic grocery bag attached to one end.

The plastic stick is light enough that it's easily waved around, it's flexible, it's hefty enough that a cow will pay attention if you whack or prod her with it, and the cows don't like the rustle of the bag. And if you really want their attention, you can pop the bag (fill it with air suddenly) so they focus.

I used to use a fiberglass sorting stick but the fiberglass can get pretty flaky and it will stay on your skin and itch. I'd still put a grocery bag on the stick.

 

[bird dog]

If any of you visit the stockyards in OKC you will notice, no hot shots and they sort, sell and load 5 to 10,000 a week. They are cattle handling professionals. They mostly use flags.
You might see a few horses and those funky old three wheelers when you unload, but most everything else is done on foot.

 

[Spot & Bubby]

i hesitate to comment as this is past my time. "in the day" if i witnessed such the bossman, et.al would have been summarily dismissed. they would have left looking over their shoulder(s) perhaps with a limp. i trust the next day's work will have a better result for you.

Unfortunately, I didn't fully realize what was going en until I reviewed the video long after everyone was gone and I was at home.

I would tell bossman that the ones coming CAN NOT use hot shots on this group of cows... NO HOTSHOTS allowed period.

That's the intention. We may have to leave me there to work with them...and watch.

Take away the hotshots. Real cattlemen don't need them.

Agreed.

We have a hot shot but honestly can't remember the last time it was used..... batteries are probably dead.

Fire that group of day workers and hire another with the understanding of how the cattle will be worked.

Bossman would be unlikely to fire all, but the horse trainer will call out one of his guys in front of everyone and send them home embarrassed. I've seen him do it over stupid stuff. However, I can't imagine that he didn't see what was happening yesterday.

If you have to confront them be clear and to the point. Look the person dead in the eye and tell them... the next time you beat or hot shot a cow unnecessarily... you are gone. Then ask... are we clear?

Some times they will cry with excuses... just reply, if you are not sure what to do, stop and we will come help you.

Say no more... and no less... but make sure your boss will back you 100%. Don't get in an argument or shouting match or any thing like that. It's a sign of weakness. People who call the shots, don't have to argue.

my "plan" is to have my phone in hand and say "Check this out. You HAVE to see this video." I have edited it so the abuse plays 3 times then once in slow motion before focusing on the cow shaking and circling. Telling him it's unacceptable treatment of any contained animal for any reason, and especially for our cattle. I like your line about asking for help, though.

The only time live ever shouted at another human was when I was losing unwinable games and trying to survive. This is different and there's little to say, much less yell, when the silent witness is in your hand.

I own a hotshot but never even carry it to the lot with me, everything is handled using a sorting stick mostly to allow more reach for me.

I usually carry a white gate post any time I'm walking around the pasture or pens. The cows are used to seeing it so they don't get spooked or suspicious when they see it. It gives me a decent reach to push someone back, and the spike on the end makes a good cattle prod. Sometimes otie a piece of twine to the end for attention.

I agree. I don't claim to be a "real cattle man," but the only time I'll use one is if an animal (usually a bull) is standing in the loading chute and refuses to get in the trailer. Even then, I'll just give them a bump in the rear to get them moving.

Exactly.

A hotshot is a tool like any other, on its own its not a bad evil thing. Put the wrong person in control of it and it can become a "bad" tool.

I agree.

Blaming the hotshot is like blaming the horse or pipe. You can't take it all away. Just get people that know how to use them.

If I have people working the chute area I like my flags for pushing and sorting. I always have at least one hot shot along the chute and infact I will not load with out one, even though I load all the time with out using it. When I am loading by myself, I take my 6' hot shot because it doubles as a sorting stick but I have the heat if I need it.

Flags are great tools. Bossman has one we argue over then usually forget to take with us. We also do well with the bats that look like paddles filled with BBs...only ours has no BBs.

The most useful tool I've found for sorting cattle is one of those orange plastic highway markers they use to show where the road is for snowplows... with a plastic grocery bag attached to one end.

The plastic stick is light enough that it's easily waved around, it's flexible, it's hefty enough that a cow will pay attention if you whack or prod her with it, and the cows don't like the rustle of the bag. And if you really want their attention, you can pop the bag (fill it with air suddenly) so they focus.

I used to use a fiberglass sorting stick but the fiberglass can get pretty flaky and it will stay on your skin and itch. I'd still put a grocery bag on the stick.

I might start putting a grocery bag on my gate post.

If any of you visit the stockyards in OKC you will notice, no hot shots and they sort, sell and load 5 to 10,000 a week. They are cattle handling professionals. They mostly use flags.
You might see a few horses and those funky old three wheelers when you unload, but most everything else is done on foot.

That's the same at our closest sale barn. I've never seen a hot shot there.

 

[SBMF 2015]

Sorting with a shocker is highly unproductive.
Like @Brute 23 said and I alluded to earlier a HotShot is a tool. It has its place. I have 3 by our working chute/ alley and one in the truck. They hardly ever get used.
I work a lot of cattle for other producers. Through my facilities and theirs. Hands down the worst cattle to work are the “ dog quiet pets” Normal cattle flow easily. Pets tend to not flow or move because they have no flight zone.
I don’t want spooks, but cows that will move with a little pressure work much easier.