Crossbred Breed ?

[IluvABbeef]

Just a random question. After doing some reading and blogging on crossbred bulls, I started thinking about some of the more common crossbeds we're seeing around lately.

I know this sounds crazy, but does anyone think that the Black Baldy (and I'm talkin about Angus-Herf cross) will become a breed? I'm serious about this, not jestin' any...

 

[Brandonm2]

There is already a Black Hereford association. While not strictly a black baldie it is still a Hereford and ANgus composite.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Oh I know that. But I meant STRICTLY Angus-Hereford cross.

 

[Jogeephus]

I hope not, would hate to see a good thing go awry.

 

[Brandonm2]

Oh I know that. But I meant STRICTLY Angus-Hereford cross.

The problem with crossing Black Baldy times Black Baldy is that ~1/4 of the progeny would be solid black, ~1/4 of the progeny would be red white faced, and the remaining ~1/2 would be everything from mostly black with a brockle face to black with full Hereford markings. There is so much heterozygosity in a black baldie that the F2 generation would be completely unpredictable and likely often not have the same heterosis levels as the F1 generation. That said, I have always thought that the Angus and Hereford associations were leaving money on the table by not selling registration papers into some sort of appendix registry for crossbred animals. I have heard that Angus is studying the potential profit in maintaining a seperate appendix Angus registry. Eventually I believe that this will happen (selling papers is what the breed associations exist for afterall), though I don't know how soon. The biggest holdups have been the unavailability and inaccuracy of crossbreed EPDs (though that has just about been resolved) and institutional reluctance too change.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Well, I was thinking along the lines of IF there is an animal that has homozygousity for the black hide AND white face (and of course the polled gene), then it could happen. But, who's gonna go out and check every black-baldy if they have that homozygousity? Prolly not very many. Money, time, effort... (I'm just thinking out loud here).

Ah well, I was just wondering. Thanks Brandonm2.

 

[Brandonm2]

Well, I was thinking along the lines of IF there is an animal that has homozygousity for the black hide AND white face (and of course the polled gene), then it could happen. But, who's gonna go out and check every black-baldy if they have that homozygousity? Prolly not very many. Money, time, effort... (I'm just thinking out loud here).

Ah well, I was just wondering. Thanks Brandonm2.

The day when we can send a DNA sample on a calf to a lab and get back a report saying that the animal is homozygous Black, homozygous polled, homozygous white faced, is free of any known lethal recessives, should be frame 5.7, has the genes for tenderness and high choice marbling, should have a 14.2 REA at 14 months, and will have fertile daughters with good udders and ideal leg set............is not here. Some of that is in the pipeline, but when all of it gets here you might not need "breeds" any more. Instead you could just assemble the genetics you want from out of a larger population through DNA testing.

 

[KNERSIE]

Well, I was thinking along the lines of IF there is an animal that has homozygousity for the black hide AND white face (and of course the polled gene), then it could happen. But, who's gonna go out and check every black-baldy if they have that homozygousity? Prolly not very many. Money, time, effort... (I'm just thinking out loud here).

Ah well, I was just wondering. Thanks Brandonm2.

wouldn't a true F1 black baldie be heterozygous by definition?

I thought that was the whole idea. Heterozygosity is what is giving the vigour. The more heterozygous the stronger the immune system.

 

[dun]

Well, I was thinking along the lines of IF there is an animal that has homozygousity for the black hide AND white face (and of course the polled gene), then it could happen. But, who's gonna go out and check every black-baldy if they have that homozygousity? Prolly not very many. Money, time, effort... (I'm just thinking out loud here).

Ah well, I was just wondering. Thanks Brandonm2.

wouldn't a true F1 black baldie be heterozygous by definition?

I thought that was the whole idea. Heterozygosity is what is giving the vigour. The more heterozygous the stronger the immune system.

Correcr

 

[TxStateCowboy]

Why should a "breed" have to be a certain color? I think most people miss the point with the word breed...

breed: noun:
Genetics. a relatively homogenous group of animals within a species, developed and maintained by humans.

-relatively similar GENES...

If you cross a black with a red 4 times, and 3 offspring are black, and 1 is red, they all still come from 1 black and 1 red.

I just wouldnt call it black hereford. How about Hangus?

 

[IluvABbeef]

I didn't mean from the F1 generation...maybe I shoulda been more clear there...and I don't think I mentioned anything about an F1 generation...maybe I IMPLIED it, but mentioning and implying are two different things...

See, I was thinking along the lines of this: Crossing a f1 x f1. If you do the math and use that good ol' punnett square, and test enough crosses, you CAN possibly get a F2 generation that is homozygous for black hide, white face, and polled gene. And then, from there, get enough of these animals and you could get a black-baldy breed.

Heck I know that an F1 animal is heterozygous for all three traits, but like I said, I should've been more clear....my bad.

THAT'S what I was thinking of....but, like I said, it was just a random question...

 

[dun]

I didn't mean from the F1 generation...maybe I shoulda been more clear there...and I don't think I mentioned anything about an F1 generation...maybe I IMPLIED it, but mentioning and implying are two different things...

See, I was thinking along the lines of this: Crossing a f1 x f1. If you do the math and use that good ol' punnett square, and test enough crosses, you CAN possibly get a F2 generation that is homozygous for black hide, white face, and polled gene. And then, from there, get enough of these animals and you could get a black-baldy breed.

Heck I know that an F1 animal is heterozygous for all three traits, but like I said, I should've been more clear....my bad.

THAT'S what I was thinking of....but, like I said, it was just a random question...

That is the reason that an F2 won;t perform as well as the F1s that produced it. The heterosis starts to go down the dumper.

 

[KNERSIE]

I didn't mean from the F1 generation...maybe I shoulda been more clear there...and I don't think I mentioned anything about an F1 generation...maybe I IMPLIED it, but mentioning and implying are two different things...

See, I was thinking along the lines of this: Crossing a f1 x f1. If you do the math and use that good ol' punnett square, and test enough crosses, you CAN possibly get a F2 generation that is homozygous for black hide, white face, and polled gene. And then, from there, get enough of these animals and you could get a black-baldy breed.

Heck I know that an F1 animal is heterozygous for all three traits, but like I said, I should've been more clear....my bad.

THAT'S what I was thinking of....but, like I said, it was just a random question...

if you continue by breeding F1 to F1, to create F2 and continue till you reached F4 and beyond, you have theoretically created a black baldie breed and if continued long enough you'll get them to be homozygous polled, black and a white face.

But what you have then is a composite breed and although you have used complimentary breeding methods to get the desired traits you wanted in the first place, you would have lost the heterosis the original baldie offered. Then you might as well save yourself a lot of work and run straight angus cows and use a hereford bull or vice versa, then atleast the calves will have the hybrid vigour.

Now i am thinking out loud....
It might be worth your while if you have a source that can supply the true F1 baldies for your replacements to use a black simmental bull with a white face on the baldies, that way you'll get baldie looking calves, but with the added hybrid vigour. I am glad I don't have to wory about the skin colour of my cattle, a good animal will outsell a poor animal on any day regardless of skin colour over here.

 

[IluvABbeef]

I didn't mean from the F1 generation...maybe I shoulda been more clear there...and I don't think I mentioned anything about an F1 generation...maybe I IMPLIED it, but mentioning and implying are two different things...

See, I was thinking along the lines of this: Crossing a f1 x f1. If you do the math and use that good ol' punnett square, and test enough crosses, you CAN possibly get a F2 generation that is homozygous for black hide, white face, and polled gene. And then, from there, get enough of these animals and you could get a black-baldy breed.

Heck I know that an F1 animal is heterozygous for all three traits, but like I said, I should've been more clear....my bad.

THAT'S what I was thinking of....but, like I said, it was just a random question...

if you continue by breeding F1 to F1, to create F2 and continue till you reached F4 and beyond, you have theoretically created a black baldie breed and if continued long enough you'll get them to be homozygous polled, black and a white face.

But what you have then is a composite breed and although you have used complimentary breeding methods to get the desired traits you wanted in the first place, you would have lost the heterosis the original baldie offered. Then you might as well save yourself a lot of work and run straight angus cows and use a hereford bull or vice versa, then atleast the calves will have the hybrid vigour.

Now i am thinking out loud....
It might be worth your while if you have a source that can supply the true F1 baldies for your replacements to use a black simmental bull with a white face on the baldies, that way you'll get baldie looking calves, but with the added hybrid vigour. I am glad I don't have to wory about the skin colour of my cattle, a good animal will outsell a poor animal on any day regardless of skin colour over here.

Gotchya. I sorta figgered this was the case, but was just curious just the same about the whole black-baldy breed thing, if it was possible to even produce it (like I said earlier).

Thanks for the input folks.