Critic my Angus Bull please

[Ricker]

I just bought him this week with 13 cows. It is my first herd so I felt that it would be a good starter herd for me. The Bull seems pretty small to me but my Ranch hand who is my consultant too seemed to be happy with him. I realize Angus are smaller cattle but he seemed especially small.

Don't hold back. I have thick skin.

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[boone]

Were it not for the male plumbing, I would have guessed him to be a big-headed cow. He has no muscle, is pot gutted and his legs are too fine boned for my tastes. If your just starting, get started on the right foot and get yourself a better bull. Boone

 

[Ricker]

Say how you really feel. :shock: You hurt my feelings.

Just kidding. Funny I almost felt the same way when I saw him. Looked like a cow with nuts. Bu since I am new to cattle I just thought it was the way Angus bulls are.

 

[rattler]

Well Ricker all Angus bulls arent made alike. There are some pic of a lot of angus bulls on this board go back and look at those and then look at yours.This might help you get some idea what to look for.I think Jake had a post a few day,s ago of a fine looking angus bull. Areo had one on some yearling bulls that looked mighty fine too.



rattler

 

[TnWI]

Ricker -

Did you get any kind of return policy when you bought the cattle? If so, I would use it on the bull. The cows look pretty good tho (I am partial to Black Baldies), and if you got a decent bull (or you could even AI - which being a first timer might be the way to go), you could have some dandy looking babies.

 

[MikeC]

On the other hand....................I have seen some less than perfect bulls sire some pretty darn good calves.

A bull that is slightly stunted during his growing years can pass some awesome genes to his calves.

The ONLY complete analysis for a bull is to have some calves from him AND another bull in the same contemporary group.

Let the calves be the judge.


A "One BULL" cattleman has no way to know what he might be missing.

 

[TnWI]

Mike, you are quite right. I have seen some pretty ugly bulls throw some beautiful calves.

However, when it came to those heifer calves having babies, (no, not sired by the same daddy) the calves didn't quite make the cut.

Some have told me that the second generation will show the flaws - I always thought that went for directline breeding, but have found it to be true in general also.

 

[Aaron]

I really like the length of spine in him and his strong back. Long neck too. Would make a fantastic heifer bull. Not real tall, not heavy. Yep, heifer bull for sure. We breed first time calvers at 700-800 lbs, so a 2200 lb. bull doesn't really work for them. Could be carrying a little more weight though, to fill in the cracks.

 

[KNERSIE]

Looking at the 4th, 5th and 6th pics it looks like his right testicle is a lot bigger than his left. I would sleep very uneasy using a bull with any irregularities in the testicles. A infertile bull can cost you one calf crop, however a subfertile bull can hurt you in generations to come with retained heifers.

Definately get a BSE done on the bull if you can't get a better quality one altogether.

 

[1848]

The bull appears a little stunted..if that is a mature bull.

I would make these suggestions:

Trade in your consultant, or at least tell your Ranch Hand/Consultant to stick to Ranch Handing! :lol:

Settle the cows, and move the bull on.

 

[S.R.R.]

I really like the length of spine in him and his strong back. Long neck too.

A couple of real good points.

Ricker what is this bull to be used for? Terminal calves, replacements ect.??

 

[Ricker]

My post from the intros forum will help answer that. Small Cow/calf operation.

I got into the cattle business today. Never owned any cattle, always wanted to since I was very young. I figured this was as good a time as any to start. My older brother also got the itch to have some (he actually researched it a lot and really encouraged me to do it) so we partnered up on these.

I am a land banker (investor) and developer so I have some acreage to put them on and I have a ranch hand that is going to do a lot of the work on a pay as needed basis. He does it for about 30 other ranches here. He came highly recommended by several of my cattle ranching buddies.

My ranch hand told me about a fella moving to Alabama who wanted to sell all of his bred, Angus cows and his bull.

I went and looked at them with my ranch hand today. They were very gentle and easy going. They all rushed right over to us and gathered around and wanted to see what we brought them. I guess he has been bringing them feed.

We both liked what we saw (and the price) so, they are mine (and my big brothers). They will have their calves in the spring and we will sell of most of those to help pay back some of the initial investment and so the cycle goes I guess. I am not looking to get rich just have them pay for themselves most of the time and one day maybe make a little bit. The tax break
on the ag. land helps a lot too.

13 cows and a bull. One red, 12 black (a black baldy too) and the black Angus bull.

Mr. Bull was friendly too

 

[Ricker]

Looking at the 4th, 5th and 6th pics it looks like his right testicle is a lot bigger than his left. I would sleep very uneasy using a bull with any irregularities in the testicles. A infertile bull can cost you one calf crop, however a subfertile bull can hurt you in generations to come with retained heifers.

Definately get a BSE done on the bull if you can't get a better quality one altogether.

The first time I saw I thought his nuts looked strange too. One does look different than the other. Smaller or less descended. Thought maybe it was just that day and/or the angle. But I dunno. Is that common or a possible problem? One hung lower on a bull? I will research it.

 

[Ricker]

I found this link on bull testicles:
http://www.cattletoday.com/archive/2002/February/CT190.shtml

I got the impression his scrotum was wedge shaped.


Here is an excerpt from the link:

Scrotal/Testicle Shape: A common cause of low fertility in bulls is abnormal testicle and scrotal sack development. The testicles should be symmetrical, nearly the same size, and freely movable in the scrotum. Small size or degeneration often affects one testicle only and is a serious finding.

There are three basic scrotal shapes in beef bulls. These are the "normal" or "bottle-shaped" scrotum, "straight-sided" scrotum, and "wedge-shaped" scrotum. Bulls having a normal scrotum with a distinct neck generally have the best testicular development. The normal scrotum offers the best opportunity for temperature control of the testicles. Often bulls with straight-sided scrotums are only moderate in testicle size. The straight-sided neck of the scrotum is generally the result of fat deposits that may impair proper thermoregulation (note previous discussion). As bulls mature and lose condition, they will often develop a more normal scrotum. Wedge-shaped scrotums are pointed toward the bottom and hold the testicles close to the body wall. Bulls with this scrotal configuration have undersized testicles and seldom produce semen of adequate quality.
Consistency Of The Testicle: The consistency of the normal testicle is much like a firm rubber ball. Extremely hard testicles indicate infection (orchitis) and very soft ones indicate degeneration. The epididymides, the structure that surrounds the testicles and transports semen to the accessory sex glands can be palpated. Defects of this structure seriously affect fertility. The neck or upper part of the scrotum can be examined. Intestine will be found in the upper part of the scrotum if a severe inguinal hernia is present. This is most common on the left side. Sometimes large fat deposits in the upper part of the scrotum can resemble an inguinal hernia.

Scrotal Circumference: Testicular size or the amount of sperm producing tissue is estimated through the use of scrotal circumference. Table 2 reflects the scrotal circumference sizes of bulls of different breeds at different ages. Scrotal circumference is an accurate and highly repeatable measurement when obtained by use of a flexible centimeter tape slipped over the bottom of the scrotum and pulled snugly to the point of greatest diameter of the scrotal sac with the testes fully descended. Testicles that are not fully descended may have wrinkles in the scrotum that will inflate the measurement. It is important to get the testicles descended in cool weather (below 50 degrees F) if accurate results are to be obtained. If below 32 degrees F, bulls should be evaluated in a warmer environment. The thumb and finger of one hand are placed on the side of the scrotum cradling the testes rather than grasping either the front or back or neck of the scrotum. The question has been asked: How much scrotal circumference is enough? In one study, the probability of a beef bull having satisfactory seminal quality increases until about a scrotal circumference of 38 cm. After that point no additional improvement is apparent

 

[plbcattle]

nice cows, but i have to agree with several of the often to honest people on here. The bull and advisor need to pack there bags. I would be looking for a better bull. I never can grasp how people will use any bull they can find when he will have such an impact on the calves, if you keep them or not. The herd has a value of $1000-$1300 per cow. why use a $1000 bull on a $15,000+ investment.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Ricker -

Regarding the subject of one testicle being lower than the other one: No you are not being "put on"! God made no mistakes when he designed the male anatomy! Look in the mirror! Every male has one Gonad lower than the other. The purpose for that very ingenious arrangement is so that the two extremely sensitive and important structures can move independently of each other - over and more or less around to avoid being crushed against the legs and/or body of the possessor - such arrangement being to perpetuate the species - however BAD the genetics and Phenotype may happen to be - and your herd is pretty bad. Better you should have taken time to LEARN a bit about the business before you made the mistakes that you have made!

I know that these comments bite pretty deep, but you must learn some way, as you have not done so yet!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Ricker]

Thanks for your input Doc.

One thing I have learned in life is that you do not learn much on the sidelines. Get in and learn while doing it. Small investment on this small herd. It won't break the bank.

The cattle auction is just up the road from me every Tuesday, So, if these are not the ones to keep, off they will go.

In my main business of land investing, and other dealings in my 45 yrs, I still learn something new every day.

I am sure the same will be true for my cattle business.

 

[Ricker]

nice cows, but i have to agree with several of the often to honest people on here. The bull and advisor need to pack there bags. I would be looking for a better bull. I never can grasp how people will use any bull they can find when he will have such an impact on the calves, if you keep them or not. The herd has a value of $1000-$1300 per cow. why use a $1000 bull on a $15,000+ investment.

Thanks for every ones honest opinions.

I suspect the bull will be gone soon now. Don't really need one till spring anyway. If in fact these cows are indeed bred!!!! :roll:

By the way, this was what I thought was a good price. Now I know why. $10,000 for the 13 bred cows and the bull.

 

[TnWI]

My ranch hand told me about a fella moving to Alabama who wanted to sell all of his bred, Angus cows and his bull.

13 cows and a bull. One red, 12 black (a black baldy too) and the black Angus bull.

That ranchhand went with you eh? and he/she knows cattle?

In looking a bit closer at the pics, I hope you realize that these aren't all (if any) purebred Angus cows. Angus are noted for having "thick butts and backs" on them - notice the narrow, boney butts, and ribs most of yours have ...... almost as if they could be dairy crossbreds. The red cow almost looks like she has some jersey in her (notice the markings on the legs, and that narrow butt!) One of the cows has a white udder - another hint there is something else in the mix. I have never seen a purebred angus to be anything but a solid color.

Don't get me wrong, they look ok, and look to be good for breeding. I just hope you didn't pay purebred Angus prices for these animals because thats not what you got.

 

[la4angus]

One of the cows has a white udder - another hint there is something else in the mix. I have never seen a purebred angus to be anything but a solid color.

You either haven't seen many Reg. Angus or have been taught wrong. There are many Angus with some white behind the navel, and more Reg Angus cows with white on the udder. This is a trait from the beginning of the breed.