Concern

[houstoncutter]

Before i run off to Vicoden beddy by a question to everyone.... Am I the only one that is alarmed at the overuse of feed, creep, baylage, anything but grass to raise our cattle...With the price of fuel and of course ethanol cutting into grain stocks , it makes me worry. Also you folks better start praying for some rain here in Texas...this weather is making me remember the 93and 94 drought and that affected prices nationwide. It been fun chatting tonight, fire back I got a thick skin, and of cousre I aint feeling much pain either...lol

 

[dun]

Geez, when I take it I'm wired for hours and can;t sleep. I don;t think it's that much more prevelant now then it has been in the past. It's just that more people are trying to raise animals to save/make some money. Probably the same percentage of it is being fed, just seems like more because there are so many more people overall trying to be farmers.

 

[tsmaxx47]

needing rain is a perpetual state of affairs down there in texas. my criteria for a retirement homestead was the first place i found where it rained more than texas. i found it the first state north. even during a drought year it's like noah's flood compared to most of texas. good luck with the rain and no you texans can't have any of ours :tiphat:

 

[KNERSIE]

What concerns me more is that my breed has lost so much of its traditional strengths that many breeders don't even select for them anymore. Between you me and the doorpost, I share your beliefs on the excessive use of feed, I just don't agree with your application of that thought process. I run my cattle harder than anyone I've ever seen, but I am a seed stock producer and I do show once or twice a year, successfully too. That doesn't mean the show cattle don't go right back into the rest of the herd as soon as I unload them and believe me they don't fall apart then either, quite the contrary, they tend to stay that weight when the other are starting to lose condition. In the end it all boils down to selection, not only of what works on your farm, but also of those animals you chose to use for marketing purposes, otherwise called the "s" word.

 

[novatech]

Before i run off to Vicoden beddy by a question to everyone.... Am I the only one that is alarmed at the overuse of feed, creep, baylage, anything but grass to raise our cattle...With the price of fuel and of course ethanol cutting into grain stocks , it makes me worry. Also you folks better start praying for some rain here in Texas...this weather is making me remember the 93and 94 drought and that affected prices nationwide. It been fun chatting tonight, fire back I got a thick skin, and of cousre I aint feeling much pain either...lol

93 & 94 brought on some changes in breed and type in Texas. Brahman, straight bred and cross, prices when through the roof and are still pretty pricey. With the low protein forage that was left it seemed as though they were the only breed that could make it with out a great deal of supplement. It was not always that way. I do remember Herefords that did well, way back when. Some where along the line we lost the type. Probably with the advent of all these hybrid grasses and commercial fertilizer.
Another problem I have seen is that to many people overstock their pastures. They stock for the prime grass season. When the weather patterns change they do not sell until they have completely killed off their grass. I was taught a believe that one should only stock to 75% of the norm. Add stockers, bale hay, or save extra grass for stock piled forage.
However with the kind of drought we are having today I do not feel any type of pasture management will work.
As far as the feed bucket is concerned, I do not believe in supplementation of herd cattle. My issue with some of your statements is that you seem to feel that if an animal was ever on feed it somehow changes it's genetics. What a cow eats can be digested by it's rumen system. The cow does not care. The microbes within the rumen care. It is a simple matter of properly converting over to the larger percentage of the right one for what ever it is eating. This garbage I hear on here all the time about cattle that can make it on grass is just that, garbage. Any cow can make it on grass. No cow needs a feed bucket if given enough high protein grass. What they do not do is define the word grass. You take a flat sided cow and put it on a lush field of clover or Tifton 85 and it will do just fine but you bring it to west Texas or South Africa and it will crash within days.

 

[Angus Cowman]

I use baleage and am pleased with the results
one of the reasons is I can grow mediocre hay on that same ground or I can grow rye on that same ground and wrap it for baleage and have better quality
after seeing the extra lbs it has put on my fall calves and the condition my cows are in coming thru winter I think the added few dollars it cost per ton to do it is justified

I would rather be able to pasture my rye but where it is planted is ground that would cost too much for me to be able to run cows on it as it has no water and isn't very accesible for the cows without lots of fencing
plus I use the rye fields as foodplots for the deer in the winter so it has a dual purpose

I DON"T grain my cows at all and only use the baleage as added nutrition in late winter when all of my stockpiled grazing is gone
grain or baleage isn't a cure all and isn't something you need to rely on for your herd to be sustainable but with me the baleage is just another managemnet tool for me to be able to get the most $$$ out of my investment and show a return
would my cows not be able to survive if I didn't use baleage No they would survive and still make me a living but with it they will make me a few more dollars over what it cost to put up the baleage and makes a crop that I am planting already easier to put up because of the weather

 

[Brandonm22]

Maybe I am getting cynical as I age, but it does not bother me at all. FAT cattle look better to most eyes than non-fat cattle. A 780 lb weaning weight in a sale catalog looks better than a 580 lb weaning wt or a 480 lb weaning weight. If you want to mass market cattle you need to either have a good story or they need to look superior to the cows back on the buyers farm..... and the easiest way to give them that "shine" or that wow factor performance is with superior nutrition. The only time this is really a problem is when you get a cattleman who does not have a working understanding of nutrition and he buys a 14 month old boy bull that weighs 1500 lbs. That sucker has been gaining over 3.34 lbs a day since it was born. You don't need a phd in Animal Science to know that he did not do that on cactus, rank fescue, briars, and broom straw and consequentially he is going to need some help over the course of the next year to maintain his condition while finishing his skeletal and muscle development if turned out in forage/range conditions until he can gradually transition from a high concentrate diet to a high roughage diet. Most people who develop bulls on test will even tell you that their bulls need supplementing in their sale catalog. With the heavy use of ai you can find cattle of all the major blood lines being raised in a variety of conditions and management styles. Find somebody who raises the genetics you are researching in conditins and management similar to yours and see if they are working for him. Unless you just have a massive herd (and probably not even then) you really should not be heavily using more than 5 or 6 bloodlines (even in a 3 way cross scenario) so it is not to difficult to stay knowledgable about what your lines will do......and won't do.

 

[plumber_greg]

You gotta' remember also, there's a lot of difference in winters. AG feeds baleage late in the season, in grain country I can afford to feed a couple pounds of grain late in the season, Jeanne in NY has to feed grain to young cows, I think all winter. Harley can't show cattle that he takes straight off the veld. Pretty difficult to keep cows, especially young cows, with calves in shape for breeding without some kind of help, as most in the north turn the bulls in the same time they go to grass.
All of us would like to just feed hay and grass to every animal from birth to slaughter, just some of us can't do it econimically. Besides, who determined that if you feed cattle anything but grass, you're ruining all future generations? Like Brandon said, buy cattle raised like you're going to raise them, every area is different. gs

 

[DOC HARRIS]

This thread has some brilliant posts! It is the epitome of why this CT Forum is existing in the first place. Those of us who can really read what is written should be able to relate the details to their own circumstances and managing protocols. Isn't that what the cow business is all about? You understand what kind of product (Beef cattle) you are manufacturing, and how to produce it with the raw materials you have to work with, and if it works - it works. If it doesn't work, there usually is a reason. The secret to success is for you to find what works for you, and then perfect it!

DOC HARRIS

 

[3waycross]

You gotta' remember also, there's a lot of difference in winters. AG feeds baleage late in the season, in grain country I can afford to feed a couple pounds of grain late in the season, Jeanne in NY has to feed grain to young cows, I think all winter. Harley can't show cattle that he takes straight off the veld. Pretty difficult to keep cows, especially young cows, with calves in shape for breeding without some kind of help, as most in the north turn the bulls in the same time they go to grass.
All of us would like to just feed hay and grass to every animal from birth to slaughter, just some of us can't do it econimically. Besides, who determined that if you feed cattle anything but grass, you're ruining all future generations? Like Brandon said, buy cattle raised like you're going to raise them, every area is different. gs

Good thoughts Greg. :clap:

The only thing I would add is simply that I attend a lot of sales where they are selling yearlings and dinks DO NOT sell well. Folks want a yearling that makes 1000lbs and maybe another 100 to 150 or so before they are turned out in May.
I see a few 2yr olds at these sales and believe me they do not bring enuf more to keep them another year so a fella might as well push em kinda hard and get them sold as yearlings. Of course there are exceptions, late calves etc.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Am I the only one that is alarmed at the overuse of feed, creep, baylage, anything but grass to raise our cattle...With the price of fuel and of course ethanol cutting into grain stocks , it makes me worry.

houstoncutter, I have been alarmed by what I consider the abuse of high energy rations in the developement of seedstock/breeding stock for the last 22 years.
The utilization of any feedstocks for the developement of breeding stock and seedstock that give one the most economical ration and used in moderation is fine. The overuse/abuse of high energy rations, grain specifically, that fattens (visible fat deposits in the brisket of young bulls) breeding stock for marketing purposes and the default masking of hard doing animals and the simulataneous selection for the need for high energy has been and continues to be detrimental to the function and longevity of breeding stock and to the identification of and selection for the forage doability that is essential for range cow efficiency. There are inumerable ways this abuse is rationalized and justified, the foremeost being financial reward, and the "financial success makes right/acceptable" arguement is inevitably the first one to be trotted out. When you see the number of breeding stock offered for sale that are fat to the point of being ready for slaughter and you speak to inspectors of the very high obvious signs of ill health in the organs of fat cattle http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/76/1/287.pdf finished on high energy rations it is as obvious as a sledge hammer in the side of the head that a no harm arguement is spurious and vexacious.

I like houstoncutter have had enough poor results with overfed breeding stock to know it is not for, we may be a lunatic fringe minority, oh well, that doesn't bother me. :tiphat:

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Can i join the lunatic fringe Dylan?

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Can i join the lunatic fringe Dylan?

By all means, if the fringe can include me it certainly isn't exclusive. :lol2: :D

 

[mwj]

dylan your theory has great merit. The only thing I would add is that it is NOT the seed-stock producer that is causing it.

You and Cory have probably looked at more bulls than anybody on these boards will ever dream of. My question to you is how many sales have you been to when the BUYERS did NOT want the biggest and best finished bulls.

As much as bull buyers cry the blues the vast majority want big well finished bulls. You sure have to lay the blame where it belongs and that is the average bull buyer. :cowboy:

 

[Dylan Biggs]

dylan your theory has great merit. The only thing I would add is that it is NOT the seed-stock producer that is causing it.

You and Cory have probably looked at more bulls than anybody on these boards will ever dream of. My question to you is how many sales have you been to when the BUYERS did NOT want the biggest and best finished bulls.

As much as bull buyers cry the blues the vast majority want big well finished bulls. You sure have to lay the blame where it belongs and that is the average bull buyer. :cowboy:

MJW, good comment.

No doubt it takes two to Tango, so to speak. Development rations in general seem to be moderating and from strictly anecdotal information my guess would be because of feed back from customers combined with more seed-stock producer awareness of the negative effects of high energy development rations. The ultimate resposibility for bull development is that of the seed-stock producer, so while there may be some logic and merit blaming the buyer in the end the producer is the only one in position to modify "their" system. An Angus sale that NR recently attended garnered what a sales manager referred to as one of highest sale averages in Canada this spring. 30 Angus 2 year old bulls averaged $5,278; 26 Angus yearling bulls averaged $3,717. Back fat ultra sound data, average 4mm's or .16 inches. So no one can say bulls have to be fat to sell, not at that sale anyway.

 

[mwj]

Dylan I think I said ''well finished''. It still comes back to spending the other guys money and he will buy what he likes.

Things are changing some on the feeding of bulls but it will take more than a couple of years to happen! Some moderate fed bulls will sell well as they should but if you mix those lighter more athletic bulls into the mix in most sales they will sell in the lower half. It is hard to change human nature and a lot easier to sell a man what he wants as opposed to what he needs. :bang:

 

[dun]

It isn;t only over conditioned bulls that sell better. The high FS bulls generally do too.

 

[houstoncutter]

Am I the only one that is alarmed at the overuse of feed, creep, baylage, anything but grass to raise our cattle...With the price of fuel and of course ethanol cutting into grain stocks , it makes me worry.

houstoncutter, I have been alarmed by what I consider the abuse of high energy rations in the developement of seedstock/breeding stock for the last 22 years.
The utilization of any feedstocks for the developement of breeding stock and seedstock that give one the most economical ration and used in moderation is fine. The overuse/abuse of high energy rations, grain specifically, that fattens (visible fat deposits in the brisket of young bulls) breeding stock for marketing purposes and the default masking of hard doing animals and the simulataneous selection for the need for high energy has been and continues to be detrimental to the function and longevity of breeding stock and to the identification of and selection for the forage doability that is essential for range cow efficiency. There are inumerable ways this abuse is rationalized and justified, the foremeost being financial reward, and the "financial success makes right/acceptable" arguement is inevitably the first one to be trotted out. When you see the number of breeding stock offered for sale that are fat to the point of being ready for slaughter and you speak to inspectors of the very high obvious signs of ill health in the organs of fat cattle http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/76/1/287.pdf finished on high energy rations it is as obvious as a sledge hammer in the side of the head that a no harm arguement is spurious and vexacious.

I like houstoncutter have had enough poor results with overfed breeding stock to know it is not for, we may be a lunatic fringe minority, oh well, that doesn't bother me. :tiphat:

D. Biggs, I am dislectic so the written or spoken word can be a challenge at time...So if you dont mind, the next time I want to stir the pot with my demented ideas, I might get you to write em... You and Doc Harris run a tight race on writing skills...As for your comments above... you also must be a mind reader, cause your read mine. :clap: :clap:

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Dylan I think I said ''well finished''. It still comes back to spending the other guys money and he will buy what he likes.

Things are changing some on the feeding of bulls but it will take more than a couple of years to happen! Some moderate fed bulls will sell well as they should but if you mix those lighter more athletic bulls into the mix in most sales they will sell in the lower half. It is hard to change human nature and a lot easier to sell a man what he wants as opposed to what he needs. :bang:

In general, you are right about the mixed offering relative to conditioning. Dun is right about frame score preferences being a factor also.

As regards the time it will take for practices and preferences to change I am under no delusion that things will change over night.


If the cost of grain continues to climb and settles at a higher plateau it may help encourage change.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Am I the only one that is alarmed at the overuse of feed, creep, baylage, anything but grass to raise our cattle...With the price of fuel and of course ethanol cutting into grain stocks , it makes me worry.

houstoncutter, I have been alarmed by what I consider the abuse of high energy rations in the developement of seedstock/breeding stock for the last 22 years.
The utilization of any feedstocks for the developement of breeding stock and seedstock that give one the most economical ration and used in moderation is fine. The overuse/abuse of high energy rations, grain specifically, that fattens (visible fat deposits in the brisket of young bulls) breeding stock for marketing purposes and the default masking of hard doing animals and the simulataneous selection for the need for high energy has been and continues to be detrimental to the function and longevity of breeding stock and to the identification of and selection for the forage doability that is essential for range cow efficiency. There are inumerable ways this abuse is rationalized and justified, the foremeost being financial reward, and the "financial success makes right/acceptable" arguement is inevitably the first one to be trotted out. When you see the number of breeding stock offered for sale that are fat to the point of being ready for slaughter and you speak to inspectors of the very high obvious signs of ill health in the organs of fat cattle http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/76/1/287.pdf finished on high energy rations, it is as obvious as a sledge hammer in the side of the head that a no harm arguement is spurious and vexacious.

I like houstoncutter have had enough poor results with overfed breeding stock to know it is not for us, we may be a lunatic fringe minority, oh well, that doesn't bother me. :tiphat:

D. Biggs, I am dislectic so the written or spoken word can be a challenge at time...So if you dont mind, the next time I want to stir the pot with my demented ideas, I might get you to write em... You and Doc Harris run a tight race on writing skills...As for your comments above... you also must be a mind reader, cause your read mine. :clap: :clap:

Houston, I read things correctly on occasion. :D Glad you went to the effort to post the topic, gave me a chance to get a few things off my chest. :cboy: