Coming up with change to protocal

[sackshowcattle]

So got back into ai last few years and use a modified 7 day Tai protocall. I set them up according to protocal but breed on observed heat am pm rule then time breed at 72 hours. I am consistently 80 to 85 percent on observed heats but in the 20s on the timed ones. Was told the timed were low but was about what to expect. Have a couple of different opinions on how to I'm prove that. One opinion was to just throw cidrs back in and go through protocal on all not bred instead of timed breeding. The other opinion was to give second shot of lute 14 days after cidrs were pulled to all non responders and observe heats again on that group. Thought on these options or other options that have worked for you. Fwi they are not the same cows every year. Already checked records to cull for fertility issues as possible cause.

 

[wbvs58]

That is about what I would expect. If you were to have done true fixed time AI the numbers would look a lot better. By inseminating those that show heat you have sorted out the tougher ones so you have picked up a few in that group. I can understand how you might want to improve on that group, I like the idea of not inseminating them on the timed AI but to give them 14 days and then PG and inseminate on observed heats. The 7 day protocol is fairly short and you may have some that had been on heat when cidrs went in so did not respond to the PG. Keeping the non responders in for a few more days and observing for heats may also pay dividends.

Ken

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

That's a good idea. Would you have to wait a full 14 days? Also, if you wait, you could catch the ones that respond to the CIDR's late (like 5 days after pull).
Of course, I would re-breed anything that was TAI and came in heat afterwards.

 

[GoWyo]

We had about 10% finally come into heat 5-6 days after pulling CIDRs this spring. Had just as many that never showed heat and they cycled 20-21 days later, which means they probably would have had a good chance at sticking on a TIA with GnRH.
Considering going with the TIA/GnRH next year and rebreed any that come in after.

 

[sackshowcattle]

I use gnrh with all timed breedings so that wont improve what I have going. I would of course watch and breed everything that came in before the 14 days just trying to figure out best way to improve that low 20s number. I had a couple of cows figured out on what works best on them and they ended up timed and bred to the cleanup bull this year. Lucky though that all the most expensive semen ended up sticking.

 

[Till-Hill]

I use gnrh with all timed breedings so that wont improve what I have going. I would of course watch and breed everything that came in before the 14 days just trying to figure out best way to improve that low 20s number. I had a couple of cows figured out on what works best on them and they ended up timed and bred to the cleanup bull this year. Lucky though that all the most expensive semen ended up sticking.

If your going thru the work of AI off standing heats I would save yourself some money on Cidrs.

Monday 9-2 Lute all cows and sticker breed standing heats
Monday 9-9 Insert Cidr and GnRH to all cows not AI'd
Sunday 9-15 Lute
Monday 9-16 pull Cidrs
Wednesday 9-18 TAI and GnRH all 9/15-9/18 give all shots/pull Cidr and TAI at approx. same time of day

 

[Ky hills]

I use gnrh with all timed breedings so that wont improve what I have going. I would of course watch and breed everything that came in before the 14 days just trying to figure out best way to improve that low 20s number. I had a couple of cows figured out on what works best on them and they ended up timed and bred to the cleanup bull this year. Lucky though that all the most expensive semen ended up sticking.

If your going thru the work of AI off standing heats I would save yourself some money on Cidrs.

Monday 9-2 Lute all cows and sticker breed standing heats
Monday 9-9 Insert Cidr and GnRH to all cows not AI'd
Sunday 9-15 Lute
Monday 9-16 pull Cidrs
Wednesday 9-18 TAI and GnRH all 9/15-9/18 give all shots/pull Cidr and TAI at approx. same time of day

I second that suggestion about the cidrs, with standing heat AI. We did much better years ago when breeding on observed standing heats. We only started using the cidrs as part of the protocol on the TAI which honestly was a complete waste of time, money, and effort to for us. In comparison we used to get good conception rates from an older protocol of 2 rounds of Lutalyse, and then observing heats starting 2-3 days after 2nd round. If memory serves me correctly, we watched for heat activity morning and evening, and when a cow was in standing heat we bred her around 12 hours later.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

The advantage to CIDR's, is they will 'force" a cow/heifer to start cycling. She may not settle on that FIRST cycle, but as least she should on her 2nd cycle.
Lut is super simple. Cheapest way to sync. Lut, breed all that cycle and Lut again the ones that did not respond - not sure on the exact day timing - I believe 10 days after 1st Lut shot. Someone on here should know.

Edit: Lutalyse label says 10-12 days after 1st shot. If you have the time to heat detect, the cheapest way is to:
Heat detect for 5 days and breed on observed heats
Lut on day 6 all cows/hfrs that you did not observe in heat - breed everything that responds
Lut on day 16-18 all that have not been bred.

 

[sackshowcattle]

To be honest I like the cidr protocals. For one they help you catch any late calvers up some. I have had good success breeding any cows with the protocal as long as they are 30 days post calving when the cidrs go in and it also helps me keep the neighbors bulls from coming through the fence or having to pen the whole herd through the whole process cause one neighbor has 5 or 6 bulls with 3 cows to keep them entertained and the other leases a small pasture for 6 head and runs the bull all summer with them instead of pulling him. Its a mess if I dont make sure everything is timed right and they are locked up before those pastures get stocked for the year. I know this site has been very helpful with this stuff I wont use another patch besides the standing heat patches after seeing them here and trying them this year. Zero question of if it was a heat or rubbed off like the estrotechs I use to use. I know we didn't have patches then but not real fond of just lute when I first learned to ai back in the 90s I tried it a couple times and never did see the good heats I get with the new protocals. Its actually why I spend a lot of years just turning bulls out before I got back into it a few years ago.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I totally understand what you are saying. And, I use the CIDR's also, but was giving people options that aren't so expensive that work. A cow will NOT cycle with a Lut shot unless she is actually ready to cycle. She will not respond to the shot if she hasn't already developed a CL. With CIDR's, they will show a standing heat, but may not release an egg.
I don't mind heat detecting. Actually enjoy it and I have the time. The main sync-ing I do is to get my group of replacements cycling in a 6 day window before I go on vacation. I have heats on most all heifers prior to breeding dates. So, some will come in natural heats during the 6 days, some I can Lut to get them to come in during the 6 days, and some I put CIDR's in. I cringe when I have to put expensive semen in one that did not show a heat and use TAI. I generally change up my records and pick a different bull - cheaper.

 

[Buck Randall]

If your goal is to improve conception to TAI rather than detecting heats in the heifers who don't show after a CIDR, I'd recommend running a presynch.

Day 0: Lut
Day 14: Lut
Day 24: Start your 7 day CIDR synch and timed AI

If your heifers are cycling, the two lut shots prior to the CIDR should have them in position to ovulate on time at the end of your program. Some people will breed to standing heats after each of the first two lut shots to save money on finishing the protocol, but conception rates are usually better across the board if you just run the shot program to completion and breed.