Chronic calves and ethical issues

[milkmaid]

Soooo... I have a chronic calf here. Not a chronic case of pneumonia; she was vet checked today and it was determined there's not an active infection, but there's no air going into the lower and rear lobes of the lungs. Not a good thing. My vet says she's probably always going to be unthrifty, has low amounts of oxygen going to her tissues (mucosal tissue was white), and may be prone to catching whatever disease comes along.

She's been vaccinated twice with Bovi-shield Gold 5 VL5, vaccinated 5 times with Nasal-gen in an effort to get her immune system going enough to get rid of the chronic infection she had. It seems to have worked, but her lungs have serious problems and I guess they may always be that way.

She's part of a group I'd like to sell this week (private treaty, not through the salebarn), but I don't know if I ought to sell her, keep her, offer her for less money, sell her later, insist she go with the rest of the bunch, etc, etc, etc. She's not weaned yet and if I take the other calves off the nurse cow she'll get more milk and may grow better. But then I'd be putting more money into her and I'm not sure if I'd rather cut my losses now.

What's y'all's thoughts on the matter?

 

[Howdyjabo]

Even if she picks up, with lung damage like that She'll die of lack of oxygen - before she gets to finish wt.
So if you sell her,someone is going to buy her and then loose a bunch of money in feed too.

Keep her(cross your fingers) and butcher her light
Sell her(give her away) but pass on what you know.
Cut your (and everybody elses) losses and put her to sleep now.

On the other hand most other people will be operating on the buyer beware plan .
I remember who stuck me with losers-- I either don't buy from them again or offer less for their calves.

 

[larryshoat]

Milkmaid, for the sake of a clear consciecne I usually keep those kind .There is usually not a way to come out a winner, but you want to maintain your reputation as running a straight up operation .If when you take away the other calves she doesn't do better I would just put her down .

Larry

 

[cfpinz]

Age and weight?

My vote goes to keeping her at home one way or another. Personally I'd take a chance and try to butcher her from the sound of it.

 

[Brandonm22]

You can't sell her to the guy private treaty. It would hurt your reputation. He won't remember the good calves you sold him; but he will always remember that one. If you just got to sell it, dump her at the auction. Preferably not one nearby and use a farm name you normally don't use. Don't break any laws over this, IF you have to disclose the medication used, do it. If you just want to get rid of this calf (so you don't have to spend any more money on it)and don't want to go through the auction just give him this one for free with full disclosure. Nobody can resist a freebie. You win brownie points, maybe he makes money (maybe not) but you don't lose anymore and you don't have to bury it. If you try to raise this one for beef, it's not going to convert worth a diddly and will cost you more money on the conversion than it will be worth.

 

[milkmaid]

Hol/Jersey cross heifer.
5 months.
Approx 250-300lbs I think (contemporaries weigh over 400lbs).

If I sold her private treaty it would definitely be with full disclosure... as far as meds; she hasn't had anything illegal or off-label, and hasn't had any antibiotics since beginning of July.

Here she is...


Had her horns taken off today along with bangs vacc (that's why she was at the vet clinic and could be evaluated).

The nurse cow she's on is feeding between 4-5 calves (the 5th belongs on the other nurse cow but seems to be swapping between the two, LOL); if I sell the other heifers and keep this one she'll only be sharing her nurse cow with 2-3 calves and getting more milk.

Thanks for the input so far... keep it coming... don't know if the info I just provided changes anyone's opinion.

 

[Jogeephus]

Follow the golden rule even if it costs you some money. Your reputation is worth more than a few dollars and you earn your reputation by small steps such as this.

To rid yourself of a headache, you might want to point out the weak calf to the buyer and let them buy it at a heavily discounted price. They will know what they are getting and it will be their choice whether or not to buy it. Problem here is that that calf will have come from YOU and if you think about the possible ramifications of this you will find its probably best to deal with it yourself - one way or the other. JMO

 

[CattleHand]

To rid yourself of a headache, you might want to point out the weak calf to the buyer and let them buy it at a heavily discounted price. They will know what they are getting and it will be their choice whether or not to buy it.

Thats my opinion. Take it to the sales barn, let them know what they are buying (if you dont want the guilt) and get rid of it/cut your loses. Anyone can look at that calf and see its poor and something isnt right with out knowing its history. It wouldn't sell high dollar at an auction but you can get done with it. I wouldn't sell private treaty.

 

[SRBeef]

Take Howdy's option three and just put her out of her misery. Usually I would agree with keep her and butcher so as not to waste an animal. However at those weights it sounds like a waste of time. Why eat an aniimal with health problems and all those meds? Put her down or keep her for a pet. Better yet just put her out of her misery. You have other things to do. jmho.

 

[msscamp]

What's y'all's thoughts on the matter?

To me, it's simple. I simply think about the types of problems I don't want to acquire, and I know what types of problems I wouldn't sell - whether via private treaty or otherwise.

 

[KNERSIE]

She doesn't look beyond repair to me, I'd leave her on the nurse cow for another month and re-evaluate, if she gets better you can either feed her out or sell through the salebarn, if not take her to the salebarn and sell through the kill pen. Even if she just ends up being bought for dog food, you still get some money back.

 

[larryshoat]

She doesn't look beyond repair to me, I'd leave her on the nurse cow for another month and re-evaluate, if she gets better you can either feed her out or sell through the salebarn, if not take her to the salebarn and sell through the kill pen. Even if she just ends up being bought for dog food, you still get some money back.

I agree with KNERSIE . This the kind of calf that I always shift back to the next group, given time and a little special treatment she might surprise you .

Larry

 

[grannysoo]

She doesn't look beyond repair to me, I'd leave her on the nurse cow for another month and re-evaluate, if she gets better you can either feed her out or sell through the salebarn, if not take her to the salebarn and sell through the kill pen. Even if she just ends up being bought for dog food, you still get some money back.

I think much the same thoughts as this.

 

[Howdyjabo]

"but there's no air going into the lower and rear lobes of the lungs. Not a good thing.
What's y'all's thoughts on the matter?"

By the picture I would say give her some time- she doesn't look that bad
But you know whats lurking inside- and time won't change that.
Cattle don't have enough lung capacity to handle any lung damage well--- and thats ALOT of lung damage.
The bigger she gets the worse its gonna hurt her.

 

[KNERSIE]

"but there's no air going into the lower and rear lobes of the lungs. Not a good thing.
What's y'all's thoughts on the matter?"

By the picture I would say give her some time- she doesn't look that bad
But you know whats lurking inside- and time won't change that.
Cattle don't have enough lung capacity to handle any lung damage well--- and thats ALOT of lung damage.
The bigger she gets the worse its gonna hurt her.

Amen,

I would say she wont live to see adult hood 3+ years.

No-one has suggested she's a keeper or that she should be sold as such, but I've never seen a student that couldn't do with a few more dollars, I can't see why not try and salvage a few dollars out of her if she is going to sell through the kill pen anyway.

 

[Howdyjabo]

Kernsie- you would be right if she stood a good chance of getting her up to butcher size.
But I THINK-- TNbeefmaster is WAY too generous in his timeline.

I THINK
She might thrive(more likely just make it) to 4-500lb(not much there to be butchering).
I doubt she'll make it to 7-800lb and even at that weight shes not gonna have much meat on her because she will start going back down again .

Also consider that along with the lung damage- she also stands a good chance of being a calf that didn't get enough(or timely) colostrum- and something else is just waiting to jump on her.

Theres no guarantee that I am right--- but I have seen(and been burnt by) an awful lot of lung damage/dinks over the years . Some dink bigger animals I will just throw out on grass just to wait and see- I'll salvage a few, most will die and the rest stay looking like crap. But if I knew there was extensive lung damage I wouldn't bother.And hers is too small to throw out on cheap grass- its gonna take feed to play the waiting game.

If you have the money to gamble then keep her- I ran out of gambling money years ago.

 

[Brandonm22]

I am not a veterinarian so I won't pretend to predict what her life expectancy is; but given her vet's diagnosis her feed efficiency, rate of gain, and possibly appetite ought to be truly awful. I could very well be wrong but I don't see how Milk can feed her out and make a decent return on the deal (forage or feed).

 

[milkmaid]

I guess we have a definite 'no' on selling her with the others? the only choice is whether to put her down now or give her a bit of time to see if she turns around.

I'm tenatively thinking about keeping her for another month and seeing how she looks... partly because I'm not home to put her down, not going to pay my vet to do it, and I can't ask my folks to do it.

Out of curiousity... those of you who suggest waiting, have you ever seen an animal like this make any improvement?

 

[rockridgecattle]

I would not sell her at any time alive. She would become a butcher animal. I believe that the reputation of the farmer/rancher is of utmost importance. Do not sell anything that you yourself would not like to be stuck with. Think how you would veiw someone who sold an animal like this to you...full disclosure or not.

RR

 

[KNERSIE]

I have seen some miraculous recoveries and turn arounds when I had no hope at all, I don't have experience with damaged lungs though.

When animals have defects like this heifer they usually do OK under good conditions, its when they are challenged nutitionally or environmentally that they struggle. That's why I suggested to wait it out another month to see whether its worth growing her out more. I personally wouldn't just put her down, there is always someone that has a need for such an animal from the kill pen.