Chicken Litter Question

[Chris H]

Life in Tyre is "warm" right now - Beruit is even warmer - so I am "staying in the shade" at present.

Take care all.

Bez+

Stay safe.

Ditto :tiphat:

 

[bob g]

Thanks to all....I have read all your posts and really do appreciate the sharing of your knowledge and opinions.

So here's what I'm going to do......There are 60 cows all with calves 3-6 months old on 100 acres of pasture....I have a portable hotwire that I will use to push these cattle into about 1/2 of the pasture, scatter the litter tomorrow on the other 1/2, incorporate the stuff with an aeroater and hope for a rain before the week is up. Next week, move the cows to the fertilized side and repeat the process.

My pastures need what this litter stuff can deliver....it is something I can afford and I have seen what it can do in my neighbors pastures.

I don't think any trips to KFC are in my immediate future. I can't imagine how anybody that had to work around this stuff 24/7 could ever "Eat More Chickin".

Bob Graves
Winona, Ms

 

[TexasBred]

As for the dog food issue, I've never read the "law" on feeding dog food nor the warnings on any of the bags. I feed it only to my one dog and that's where it stops...well no the dog probably poops in the pasture so I guess i could be contaminating the cattle. ;-) Hopefully noone is stupid enought to feed dog foot to cattle.

Haven't you presented yourself as a nutritionist/feed salesman? Just what is your experience with feeding/raising cattle? Federal law prohibits feeding ruminant byproducts to ruminants, dog food contains ruminant byproducts.

As for the chicken litter, unless you know what feed the chicken grower has fed, and know it does not contain any ruminant byproduct then you better be safe and not let the cows eat it. Put it on the ground and let it decompose. And bigbull, do you have any idea of the incubation time for BSE? Anecdotal incidents from your friends brothers uncle on what he feeds his pet cow in his backyard is worthless.

Chris, yes I feed cattle. No I do not feed any animal protein products to my cattle...No I do not fertilize with chicken litter. No I do not formulate feeds using ruminant by-products of any kind. However, regardless of what Federal Law says there will always be some idiot that might feed dog food to a cow without giving it a thought.
Chris to satisfy your own mind why don't you call Tyson Foods, Pilgrims Foods and some of the other big poultry raisers and ask them about their feed. I'm sure in their desire to maintain public confidence they will be glad to tell you what they put in their poultry rations. Then you can say you got it from the source.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

As for the dog food issue, I've never read the "law" on feeding dog food nor the warnings on any of the bags. I feed it only to my one dog and that's where it stops...well no the dog probably poops in the pasture so I guess i could be contaminating the cattle. ;-) Hopefully noone is stupid enought to feed dog foot to cattle.

Haven't you presented yourself as a nutritionist/feed salesman? Just what is your experience with feeding/raising cattle? Federal law prohibits feeding ruminant byproducts to ruminants, dog food contains ruminant byproducts.

As for the chicken litter, unless you know what feed the chicken grower has fed, and know it does not contain any ruminant byproduct then you better be safe and not let the cows eat it. Put it on the ground and let it decompose. And bigbull, do you have any idea of the incubation time for BSE? Anecdotal incidents from your friends brothers uncle on what he feeds his pet cow in his backyard is worthless.

Chris, yes I feed cattle. No I do not feed any animal protein products to my cattle

• ...No I do not fertilize with chicken litter.

No I do not formulate feeds using ruminant by-products of any kind. However, regardless of what Federal Law says there will always be some idiot that might feed dog food to a cow without giving it a thought.
Chris to satisfy your own mind why don't you call Tyson Foods, Pilgrims Foods and some of the other big poultry raisers and ask them about their feed. I'm sure in their desire to maintain public confidence they will be glad to tell you what they put in their poultry rations. Then you can say you got it from the source.

i would use it for fertilizer in a second if i could get it here in the valley. best stuff to build fertility you can get without breaking the bank

 

[somn]

Any time one of our trucks leaves Doane Pet Care in Le Sueur MN the driver must sign a waiver acknowleding they are hauling products containing mammalian protein. They are responsible to ensure it is not fed to ruminants. They are also responsible to ensure the point of delivery is aware there are mammalian protein products in the shipment.

 

[somn]

As for what you can or can't do...you can feed dog food to a cow if she'll eat it and you're ignorant enough to do it. The feed store don't ask you what you're gonna feed when you buy dog food...the same for chicken feed. It will be labeled for the proper use but the purchaser can do whatever he wants with it.

If the dog food contained any mammalian protien the DO NOT FEED TO CATTLE OR OTHER RUMINANTS Warning would have been clearly been printed on the label. Same as any chicken or poultry feed or even fish feed. Now the guy feeding chicken litter to cattle did the litter come with a label containing the warning DO NOT FEED TO CATTLE OR OTHER RUMINANTS? I'm guessing not. Does it meen there was no mammalian protien in the litter? No it just meant nobody labeled it one way or the other. If it isn't bad enough that we have a loophole in the mammalian protein feed ban we have feed sales men telling people it is safer to feed chicken litter to cattle than it is to eat chicken. Texasbred what part of the mammalian protein feed ban for ruminants effective back in 1997 do you not understand?

 

[TexasBred]

As for what you can or can't do...you can feed dog food to a cow if she'll eat it and you're ignorant enough to do it. The feed store don't ask you what you're gonna feed when you buy dog food...the same for chicken feed. It will be labeled for the proper use but the purchaser can do whatever he wants with it.

If the dog food contained any mammalian protien the DO NOT FEED TO CATTLE OR OTHER RUMINANTS Warning would have been clearly been printed on the label. Same as any chicken or poultry feed or even fish feed. Now the guy feeding chicken litter to cattle did the litter come with a label containing the warning DO NOT FEED TO CATTLE OR OTHER RUMINANTS? I'm guessing not. Does it meen there was no mammalian protien in the litter? No it just meant nobody labeled it one way or the other. If it isn't bad enough that we have a loophole in the mammalian protein feed ban we have feed sales men telling people it is safer to feed chicken litter to cattle than it is to eat chicken. Texasbred what part of the mammalian protein feed ban for ruminants effective back in 1997 do you not understand?

Somn...you're always trying to stir up Sh_t aren't you. Go back and read my post. I never said I fed anything with mammalian protein nor formualted feeds with this protein. I did say there is always some idiot that will feed dog food to a cow or something else. I also advised Chris to call the suppliers of the poultry feed to confirm the ingredients used in their feeds. There is no restriction on poultry orswine feeds so yes there could be some animal protein in them but it is of swine, poultry or fish origin. Has BSE EVER been traced back to poultry or swine? Now...is there a "loophole" in the law? Absolutely not. Just not an adequate procedure in place to track the disposition of all feeds, feeding methods and disposition of waste from these animals. Now...you too can start making calls to the feed producers. You can stop the speculation and get the answers from the folks who manufacture the feed and report back to us. ;-) And for whatever it's worth, I'm neither a feed salesman nor do I work with or employ any feed salesman. It might be enjoyable work but I really don't care for sales folks period. I certainly don't look forward to obnoxious, ostentatious pricks like yourself who seem to think maturity and growth are directly related to the volume of BS you can sprew forth.

 

[somn]

Excellent answer texasbred. Instead of telling us what part of the feed ban you don't understand you resort to name calling. And you bring into question other peoples maturity. Thumbs up.

 

[TexasBred]

Excellent answer texasbred. Instead of telling us what part of the feed ban you don't understand you resort to name calling. And you bring into question other peoples maturity. Thumbs up.

Well thank you Mr. Somn. I understand the feed "ingredient" ban very well. As for your maturity, I can only report on what I've seen from you and feel I did a more than adequate job of describing it. Now let's move on to something constructive. ;-)

 

[somn]

You understood the feeding ban so well that you advised people that feeding mammalian protein indirectly thru litter to cattle was safer than eating chicken. Brilliant advice. People like yourself are the very reason we have a mad cow problem in the first place. How did you say it "Sometimes you have to take a little risk in live....remember..the turtle couldn't cross the road til he stuck his neck out" Yeah lets stick our necks out and feed mammalian proteins inderectly to cattle and hope it doesn't bite us in the ass later on. Pure genius Tbred

 

[somn]

I'd be more afraid of what I would get from simply eating chicken than of feeding liter to the cattle. Sometimes you have to take a little risk in live....remember..the turtle couldn't cross the road til he stuck his neck out. ;-)

;-)

 

[somn]

If the cattle pick up some chicken litter as it is being spread for fertilizer, I wouldn't consider that "feeding" them chicken litter.

That is correct john you didn't feed it directly to the cattle but as the people in charge of providing care for these animals it is our responsibility to make sure they are not given the opportunity to ingest banned proteins. Same with chemicals sprayed on our pastures and alfalfa fields. Just because we didn't actually spray the liquid down their throat does that meen we did everything possible to stop cattle from ingesting the herbicide? No so we leave them out of the pasture or we don't hay the crop until the restrictions are over. We are responsible for what cattle ingest they are not as they cannot read warning labels. Don't blame cattle for human stupidity.

 

[john250]

If the cattle pick up some chicken litter as it is being spread for fertilizer, I wouldn't consider that "feeding" them chicken litter.

That is correct john you didn't feed it directly to the cattle but as the people in charge of providing care for these animals it is our responsibility to make sure they are not given the opportunity to ingest banned proteins. Same with chemicals sprayed on our pastures and alfalfa fields. Just because we didn't actually spray the liquid down their throat does that meen we did everything possible to stop cattle from ingesting the herbicide? No so we leave them out of the pasture or we don't hay the crop until the restrictions are over. We are responsible for what cattle ingest they are not as they cannot read warning labels. Don't blame cattle for human stupidity.

My response was probably "lawyerly", although I'm not a lawyer.
I don't use chicken litter but I do use herbicides, and I follow the grazing restrictions.
I share your concern with "mammalian proteins", but I think the risk of transmitting BSE through a few cows eating some chicken litter spread for fertilizer is infinitesimal. One good rain and the risk is gone, so I would keep them off that pasture until then.

 

[Farminlund]

The reason that litter was not banned as a cattle feed back when the "big" BSE scare happened a few years ago was that they decided it too risky to allow ruminant protein to be feed to chickens or other animals (swine). The reason - contamination of feed from one to another type was likely while control & cleaning of mixing facilities seemed another likely reason for contamination of cattle feed. I also wrote the FDA (during the input period) that the spreading litter as pasture fertilizer would also likely comprise the control of ruminant protein from getting into the cattle herd - I have no idea if my concern had anything to do with their final decision. In conclusion, there is no use of ruminant protein in any animal feed; thus litter possesses no risk to pass on BSE to cattle. Why do I know this info - have feed chicken litter to cattle for over 10 yrs & continue to do so - go at it, been here before!

 

[somn]

The reason that litter was not banned as a cattle feed back when the "big" BSE scare happened a few years ago was that they decided it too risky to allow ruminant protein to be feed to chickens or other animals (swine). The reason - contamination of feed from one to another type was likely while control & cleaning of mixing facilities seemed another likely reason for contamination of cattle feed. I also wrote the FDA (during the input period) that the spreading litter as pasture fertilizer would also likely comprise the control of ruminant protein from getting into the cattle herd - I have no idea if my concern had anything to do with their final decision. In conclusion, there is no use of ruminant protein in any animal feed; thus litter possesses no risk to pass on BSE to cattle. Why do I know this info - have feed chicken litter to cattle for over 10 yrs & continue to do so - go at it, been here before!

Maybe where you are from they don't use ruminant blood and bone meal in animal feed here they still use it in many hog finishing rations and some dog food products. The gentleman from Darling told me it is being sold by the railcar loads to a certain Poultry Feedmill.

 

[KenB]

The reason that litter was not banned as a cattle feed back when the "big" BSE scare happened a few years ago was that they decided it too risky to allow ruminant protein to be feed to chickens or other animals (swine). The reason - contamination of feed from one to another type was likely while control & cleaning of mixing facilities seemed another likely reason for contamination of cattle feed. I also wrote the FDA (during the input period) that the spreading litter as pasture fertilizer would also likely comprise the control of ruminant protein from getting into the cattle herd - I have no idea if my concern had anything to do with their final decision. In conclusion, there is no use of ruminant protein in any animal feed; thus litter possesses no risk to pass on BSE to cattle. Why do I know this info - have feed chicken litter to cattle for over 10 yrs & continue to do so - go at it, been here before!

Maybe where you are from they don't use ruminant blood and bone meal in animal feed here they still use it in many hog finishing rations and some dog food products.

The gentleman from Darling told me it is being sold by the railcar loads to a certain Poultry Feedmill.

If it is against the law why don't you report them instead of picking on the litter?

Isn't BSE spread from the brains and spinal cord rather than blood and bone meal?

 

[somn]

Report who? It isn't against the law to indirectly feed ruminants to ruminants by way of poultry litter it is just a loophole to continue doing it. And it isn't against the law to include ruminant blood and bone meal in poultry or hog feed.

 

[somn]

The reason that litter was not banned as a cattle feed back when the "big" BSE scare happened a few years ago was that they decided it too risky to allow ruminant protein to be feed to chickens or other animals (swine). The reason - contamination of feed from one to another type was likely while control & cleaning of mixing facilities seemed another likely reason for contamination of cattle feed. I also wrote the FDA (during the input period) that the spreading litter as pasture fertilizer would also likely comprise the control of ruminant protein from getting into the cattle herd - I have no idea if my concern had anything to do with their final decision. In conclusion, there is no use of ruminant protein in any animal feed; thus litter possesses no risk to pass on BSE to cattle. Why do I know this info - have feed chicken litter to cattle for over 10 yrs & continue to do so - go at it, been here before!

Maybe where you are from they don't use ruminant blood and bone meal in animal feed here they still use it in many hog finishing rations and some dog food products.

The gentleman from Darling told me it is being sold by the railcar loads to a certain Poultry Feedmill.

If it is against the law why don't you report them instead of picking on the litter?

Isn't BSE spread from the brains and spinal cord rather than blood and bone meal?

Meat meal, bone meal and blood meal from ruminant animals is banned from ruminant feeds for a reason. Why would you want to take the risk of feeding it indirectly to cattle? Is there nothing else you could feed to your cattle?

 

[Farminlund]

From the Federal Register / Vol. 69, No. 134 / Wednesday, July 14, 2004 / Proposed Rules 42297 -

Page 42292 -
"''Prohibition on the Use of Specified
Risk Materials (SRMs) for Human Food and
Requirements for the Disposition of
Non-Ambulatory Disabled Cattle'' (FSIS
Docket No. 03–025IF; 69 FR 1861), and
referred to below as the SRM rule, FSIS
designated the brain, skull, eyes,
trigeminal ganglia, spinal cord, vertebral
column (excluding the vertebrae of the
tail, the transverse process of the
thoracic and lumbar vertebrae, and the
wings of the sacrum), and dorsal root
ganglia of cattle 30 months of age and
older, and the tonsils and distal ileum
of the small intestine of all cattle as
SRM, and prohibited their use as human
food. To ensure effective removal of the
distal ileum, the SRM rule requires
establishments to remove the entire
small intestine and dispose of it as
inedible.

Page 42296-
C. Animal Feed Restrictions
Specified Risk Materials (SRMs)
In the ''Feed Restrictions'' section of
the report, the IRT recommended: ''All
SRM should be excluded from all
animal feed, including pet food.'' [p. 5]
FDA has prohibited the use of most
mammalian proteins in ruminant feed
since 1997. The IRT report stated that,
''Considering the BSE situation in North
America, the [IRT] believes the partial
(ruminant to ruminant) feed ban that is
currently in place is insufficient to
prevent exposure of cattle to the BSE
agent.'' [p. 5] The IRT further stated
that, ''While science would support the
feed bans limited to the prohibition of
ruminant derived [meat and bone meal]
MBM in ruminant feed, practical
difficulties of enforcement demand
more pragmatic and effective solutions.''
[p. 6] Specifically, the IRT cited
epidemiological evidence in the United
Kingdom that highlight the dangers of
cattle infection through the
consumption of feed that had been
contaminated accidentally when
manufactured in premises that
legitimately used mammalian meat and
bone meal in feed for pigs and poultry.
[p. 5] In addition, the IRT report cited
an ongoing attack rate study at the
Veterinary Laboratories Agency in the
United Kingdom that demonstrates
transmission of BSE with 10 mg of
infectious brain tissue. [p. 5] Although
not yet published, more recent results
from this study have demonstrated
transmission with a lower dose of
infectious brain tissue. These levels are
significantly lower than the 1 gram
infectious dose that had been
demonstrated in the same study at the
time the 1997 BSE feed rule was issued.
Further, the Harvard-Tuskegee Study
showed that removing SRMs from all
animal feed reduces by 88 percent the
potential exposure of cattle to the BSE
agent when 10 BSE infected cattle are
introduced into the United States.
Accordingly, FDA has tentatively
concluded that it should propose
removing SRMs from all animal feed to
adequately control the risks associated
with cross contamination throughout
feed manufacture and distribution and
with intentional or unintentional
misfeeding on the farm. FDA is
currently working on a proposal to
accomplish this goal."

I believe the above was adopted, thus the lack of a ban on chicken litter as a cattle feed as well as a pasture fertilizer.

 

[somn]

From the Federal Register / Vol. 69, No. 134 / Wednesday, July 14, 2004 / Proposed Rules 42297 -

Page 42292 -
"''Prohibition on the Use of Specified
Risk Materials (SRMs) for Human Food and
Requirements for the Disposition of
Non-Ambulatory Disabled Cattle'' (FSIS
Docket No. 03–025IF; 69 FR 1861), and
referred to below as the SRM rule, FSIS
designated the brain, skull, eyes,
trigeminal ganglia, spinal cord, vertebral
column (excluding the vertebrae of the
tail, the transverse process of the
thoracic and lumbar vertebrae, and the
wings of the sacrum), and dorsal root
ganglia of cattle 30 months of age and
older, and the tonsils and distal ileum
of the small intestine of all cattle as
SRM, and prohibited their use as human
food. To ensure effective removal of the
distal ileum, the SRM rule requires
establishments to remove the entire
small intestine and dispose of it as
inedible.

Page 42296-
C. Animal Feed Restrictions
Specified Risk Materials (SRMs)
In the ''Feed Restrictions'' section of
the report, the IRT recommended: ''All
SRM should be excluded from all
animal feed, including pet food.'' [p. 5]
FDA has prohibited the use of most
mammalian proteins in ruminant feed
since 1997. The IRT report stated that,
''Considering the BSE situation in North
America, the [IRT] believes the partial
(ruminant to ruminant) feed ban that is
currently in place is insufficient to
prevent exposure of cattle to the BSE
agent.'' [p. 5] The IRT further stated
that, ''While science would support the
feed bans limited to the prohibition of
ruminant derived [meat and bone meal]
MBM in ruminant feed, practical
difficulties of enforcement demand
more pragmatic and effective solutions.''
[p. 6] Specifically, the IRT cited
epidemiological evidence in the United
Kingdom that highlight the dangers of
cattle infection through the
consumption of feed that had been
contaminated accidentally when
manufactured in premises that
legitimately used mammalian meat and
bone meal in feed for pigs and poultry.
[p. 5] In addition, the IRT report cited
an ongoing attack rate study at the
Veterinary Laboratories Agency in the
United Kingdom that demonstrates
transmission of BSE with 10 mg of
infectious brain tissue. [p. 5] Although
not yet published, more recent results
from this study have demonstrated
transmission with a lower dose of
infectious brain tissue. These levels are
significantly lower than the 1 gram
infectious dose that had been
demonstrated in the same study at the
time the 1997 BSE feed rule was issued.
Further, the Harvard-Tuskegee Study
showed that removing SRMs from all
animal feed reduces by 88 percent the
potential exposure of cattle to the BSE
agent when 10 BSE infected cattle are
introduced into the United States.
Accordingly, FDA has tentatively
concluded that it should propose
removing SRMs from all animal feed to
adequately control the risks associated
with cross contamination throughout
feed manufacture and distribution and
with intentional or unintentional
misfeeding on the farm. FDA is
currently working on a proposal to
accomplish this goal."

I believe the above was adopted, thus the lack of a ban on chicken litter as a cattle feed as well as a pasture fertilizer.

You might want to look at the final rule published April 25 2008 you will see ruminant meat and bone meal of cattle can still be used in animal feed. It does not go into effect until April 27 2009. Even then certain types of ruminant meat and bone meal will be used in animal feed.