Charolais

[uplandnut]

I have noticed on the board in various discussions that people like the char bulls for growth and that is it. Is there a reason that they are not desired for replacements or is it just personal preference? I would think that if the bulls produce larger calves crossed to other breeds wouldn't breeding to char cows produce even more growth? Or is it the hybrid vigor that causes the larger growth when crossed?

 

[kenny thomas]

The cost of keeping the larger cow could outweigh the profit. Plus the resulting calf can be too large at finished to fit the "box".

 

[BC]

Mature size of the cow is biggest concern. Too high of maintenance requirements. As one old cow man told me 30 years ago about another continental breed - "They are meant to feed, not breed".

 

[lithuanian farmer]

Char cows do produce growthy calves, but as it was stated before they can be too big for everybody's taste. There are some smaller more moderate size Charolais, but another concerns I'd believe are the colour, birth weight.
I personally like abit bigger cows and don't care about the colour, and bigger bw isn't a problem, so we have some crossbred cows and will try to breed some more replacements. At least here the main thing why alot of people have changed Charolais into another breed was difficult calving. You need to have good management to be able to raise Char cows with few calving trouble. At least that's my experience.

 

[callmefence]

They definitely have a reputation for not being the best mamma cows in the world. Big clumsy calves that seem to struggle to get around for a few days. And not enough milk. There are certainly exceptions and that reputation is decades old. But on average I think there is some truth to it. I agree with kt.
The char is for producing red meat. Not Mama cows

 

[ez14.]

Because it's a terminal breed! Maternal breeds are for cows and terminal breeds are for bulls

Course you can do whatever you want but that is the most efficient way to make beef

 

[Muddy]

Mature cow size and the huge BW are two main reasons why they are not maternal breed. Char cross cows are okay as momma cows it just depends on what's the other breed. It seems that even low BW bulls won't reduce the huge BW of Charolais females on occasions.

 

[Silver]

IMO there is no such thing as a terminal breed. One guys terminal is another guys maternal. Before I became enlightened I used Red Angus as a "terminal" breed for awhile (who would want to keep that in their herd??) to use on my first calf heifers. But I came to see that there was in fact some redeeming qualities in the Angus breed, and still feel that if I can keep it at a low enough percentage it can help a little in some areas.
There are a lot of fine moma Chars out there, as there are of most any breed.

 

[ez14.]

IMO there is no such thing as a terminal breed. One guys terminal is another guys maternal. Before I became enlightened I used Red Angus as a "terminal" breed for awhile (who would want to keep that in their herd??) to use on my first calf heifers. But I came to see that there was in fact some redeeming qualities in the Angus breed, and still feel that if I can keep it at a low enough percentage it can help a little in some areas.
There are a lot of fine moma Chars out there, as there are of most any breed.

breeding maternal traits into terminal breeds and vise versa is one thing that really annoys me! When every breed has the same traits you lose most of your cross breeding benefits

 

[Silver]

IMO there is no such thing as a terminal breed. One guys terminal is another guys maternal. Before I became enlightened I used Red Angus as a "terminal" breed for awhile (who would want to keep that in their herd??) to use on my first calf heifers. But I came to see that there was in fact some redeeming qualities in the Angus breed, and still feel that if I can keep it at a low enough percentage it can help a little in some areas.
There are a lot of fine moma Chars out there, as there are of most any breed.

breeding maternal traits into terminal breeds and vise versa is one thing that really annoys me! When every breed has the same traits you lose most of your cross breeding benefits

I have a hard time with the term "terminal breeds". Is there a list? What if I've mistakenly been breeding terminal cattle all along? :lol:

 

[Muddy]

There is some truth in ez14's statement. There are some maternal bloodlines in terminal breed, just like there are some terminal bulls in Angus & Hereford breeds.

 

[Silver]

There is some truth in ez14's statement. There are some maternal bloodlines in terminal breed, just like there are some terminal bulls in Angus & Hereford breeds.

Yes, I can definitely agree with that. And what could be wrong with breeding for maternal characteristics in any breed? :???:

 

[farmerjan]

We happen to like the commercial Charolais cattle we have. Most seem to be very good momma's. Very attentive to their calves. The calves have more size, and if the cow has any milk, they will grow. We have had as many "mediocre" black cattle as charolais, percentage wise.... and we have black cattle 15 to 1 to the charl. Yet I like them. The smokey calves sell decent at certain times of year, and the ones we retain for replacements, give us a black or real dark grey calf if bred back black. I also like our red cattle, but we take a horrible hit on their calves. Except the Hereford x angus, as long as they don't have too much white. Again, if they have alot of white on the neck and such, if they are a heifer, they stay to become a replacement and usually do real good.
The only ones we never have any luck with are shorthorns, and you couldn't give me another shorthorn. They were popular up north where I came from, and I always liked them. But they don't work in our operation here.
The red limis are nice, but so many have attitudes.... we used a nice black limi bull this year on 14 cows, calves due starting in mid-march. He's pretty quiet unless you get him separated and then he gets a little nervous....will be watching that when the calves hit the ground. If the calves are nice, will use him on a big group next year. Have an older bull we have used and really like his calves. He was with 35 this past year; have about 15 of his heifers we are trying to pick through to retain 5-6 from this past springs' group.

 

[lithuanian farmer]

Not sure how indexes work in your part of the world, but here bulls have an index for terminal traits and an index for maternal qualities. I mean, it is used in France too, in the country where such breed like Charolais originate from and you can find plenty Charolais bulls with high one or both indexes. Have seen some Aberdeen angus bulls from UK having very high terminal indexes too. Most continental breeds could be called terminal breeds, but most of them, if doing a proper selection, make excellent cows. If you ask here, which breed of cow makes the best mother cow, most would say Limousin or Simmental. Which for some could be terminal breeds. Each breed has terminal lines and maternal lines. You just have to choose what you need. If one breed would be just terminal, I believe it would go extinct quite quickly.
At the moment we use Charolais bull, which has pretty high both indexes, have used some bulls in the past which were known for producing excellent daughters.

 

[ez14.]

There is some truth in ez14's statement. There are some maternal bloodlines in terminal breed, just like there are some terminal bulls in Angus & Hereford breeds.

Yes, I can definitely agree with that. And what could be wrong with breeding for maternal characteristics in any breed? :???:

Why go through the trouble of breeding in maternal when there are already plenty of maternal options?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

IMO there is no such thing as a terminal breed. One guys terminal is another guys maternal. Before I became enlightened I used Red Angus as a "terminal" breed for awhile (who would want to keep that in their herd??) to use on my first calf heifers. But I came to see that there was in fact some redeeming qualities in the Angus breed, and still feel that if I can keep it at a low enough percentage it can help a little in some areas.
There are a lot of fine moma Chars out there, as there are of most any breed.

breeding maternal traits into terminal breeds and vise versa is one thing that really annoys me! When every breed has the same traits you lose most of your cross breeding benefits

I have a hard time with the term "terminal breeds". Is there a list? What if I've mistakenly been breeding terminal cattle all along? :lol:

you'd know it before long...they would breed theirselves out..I don't see how Charolais and a few other continentals ain't extinct... The herds I see in pastures must be like saving the buffalo....

 

[sstterry]

IMO there is no such thing as a terminal breed. One guys terminal is another guys maternal. Before I became enlightened I used Red Angus as a "terminal" breed for awhile (who would want to keep that in their herd??) to use on my first calf heifers. But I came to see that there was in fact some redeeming qualities in the Angus breed, and still feel that if I can keep it at a low enough percentage it can help a little in some areas.
There are a lot of fine moma Chars out there, as there are of most any breed.

breeding maternal traits into terminal breeds and vise versa is one thing that really annoys me! When every breed has the same traits you lose most of your cross breeding benefits

I have a hard time with the term "terminal breeds". Is there a list? What if I've mistakenly been breeding terminal cattle all along? :lol:

Here is a good article on it.
https://www.beefmagazine.com/cow-calf/should-you-make-maternal-or-terminal-matings

 

[Silver]

There is some truth in ez14's statement. There are some maternal bloodlines in terminal breed, just like there are some terminal bulls in Angus & Hereford breeds.

Yes, I can definitely agree with that. And what could be wrong with breeding for maternal characteristics in any breed? :???:

Why go through the trouble of breeding in maternal when there are already plenty of maternal options?

The point I'm trying to make is that every breed already has maternal qualities. Or they wouldn't exist. Some poor schmucks have been happily breeding (insert any breed here) for generations, keeping cows that make make good mommas and produce good offspring. I think the only time the "terminal" option comes in to play is when you've got yourself in a position that your cows aren't maternal enough anymore to raise quality calves, so in an act of desperation you throw something extreme at them in hopes of seeing a short term benefit.
But in all honesty, I could be misunderstanding the terminal-maternal argument. I just try to raise good cows on the theory that the steer calf side of things will look after itself. I guess if that's chasing weaning weights then I'm guilty as charged.

 

[uplandnut]

Didn't mean to start a terminal/maternal argument. Simply put, the charolais just have a reputation for not being the best of mothers and consume a larger amount of feed than some like. That being said aren't all of our cows and calves terminal at some point?

 

[Silver]

One of the members here posted a picture of some beautiful Charolais cattle awhile ago. I wish I could remember who it was.