cattle prices and trends

[J]

So what you are saying, CB, is that if someone is trying to ranch in an area that is above the state average of 200 they are hobby guys and shouldn't be allowed to do it? An average to my understanding is the middle ground of the highs and the lows. Someone has to be on up there and then there are those that are below the 200, so what.

Now also by your logic we need to go thru and find out who is ranching "in the city" and pull their exemption right? I might be a hobbiest by your standards but if eric has 100 acres like you assumed then I know enough about the business to assume he probably aint just a weekend warrior. Just my opinion.

Hey eric nows the time to come clean, drop the ag exemption, subdivide up that good land of yours, make a pot load of money and rid yourself of the worries of the weekend retreat out to the farm. ;-) Let the big boys handle it. :roll:

 

[Grippie]

I think you guys are forgetting why most of "us" raise cattle. Don't make no diference how much I lose on the cattle, it still would be less than the taxes I would pay if I lost my ag exemption. And the higher the feed bill goes, the more I write off come April. Granted, in a perfect world, cattle prices would be high and feed bills would be low and I'd have a huge profit every year to claim and pay income taxes on while still keeping the property tax bill low, but this aint a perfect world. But compared to a $20k -$25k tax bill every year, the price of a few cows going down aint gonna make me get rid of em. Like was said earlier, I believe the hobby raisers will weather this storm better than the guys who depend on the cows for their sole income.

You write off 25k to save 5k in taxes thats not very wise money management you lost 19k. There are more wise investments as tax shelters than cattle.
If you are using cattle for a tax shelter you are losing your butt.
The name of the game is profit, not for every dollar I spend in ag to save 28 cents.
Hobby guys around here are starting to fold after two years of drought and no one has hay to sell them.

What??? I think you have it backwards. I write off $2k in cow expenses in order to save 25k in property taxes. I got neighbors around me on the 5 acre lots w/o the ag exemption paying around 16k in property taxes each yr. I pay less than 1/2 that on 4 times the acreage. I dont live in $500 an acre cattle country.

If thats your property taxes in Texas you are trying to ranch in the city and shouldn't be eligable for the tax excemption in the first place. If you have a 100 acres thats 2500 dollars an acre when the state average is 200 for improved pasture not under ag.
I totally think the state should visit ever one of these ag exceptions and stop this hobby use for tax evasion.

Alright, I am tired of these "wannabe" and "hobbiest" remarks.
I have an full time job and spend every waking moment that I am not at that fulltime job, tending to cattle and putting up crops for my cattle and for sale. I shouldnt be entitled for an ag exemption? It's a small business, isnt it? I sell beef, hay and firewood...
What about all of the people that are taking tax advantage of running antique shops and craftshops, lawn mowing business etc...?
Not all of us were handed a farm/ranch from our Daddies. We have to build it up out of nothing, into something. People like us hobbiests have to start somewhere... And I bet many of us hobbiest/wannabees work just as hard if not harder than you.
If my business wasnt "on the books", you'd be complaining about that.

 

[eric]

If thats your property taxes in Texas you are trying to ranch in the city and shouldn't be eligable for the tax excemption in the first place. If you have a 100 acres thats 2500 dollars an acre when the state average is 200 for improved pasture not under ag.
I totally think the state should visit ever one of these ag exceptions and stop this hobby use for tax evasion.

100 acres? My last name isn't Perot or Cuban! I own 18 acres. The city (and perhaps the state?) encourages folks to keep the land as rural as possible and in return for this favor of not selling out and selling to developers they give us a little tax break in return. I could sell out and they could probably stick 50-75 houses on my 18 acres, with 1/4 to 1/3 acre lots. But what would that cost the city to run water/sewer lines to the homes, putting in new streets and building more schools? Not to mention the additional wear and tear on our roads.

Why is your farm a business and mine is not? Is it because I happen to have another job to pay my bills? I still have expenses and upkeep. I still buy feed and fertilizer, pay vet bills just like a "real" rancher. If you dont turn a profit at your place, does your farm automatically become a hobby instead of a business? Take away the ag exemption, and there would be alot less open spaces near the cities and you'd see houses/strip malls pop up everywhere. Not that we are'nt seeing that already, but it would be alot worse without any incentive to keep the land as rural looking as possible.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Truth hurts don't it. I started with one cow my goal wasn't to get out of paying property taxes in the city. It was to make a living.
If its your hobby admit it and pay your taxes just like the golfer or bass fisherman, quit acting like you are some kind of farmer/rancher.
It's like the guy that buys the tractor to save on taxes, spends 30 grand to write off 6 grand off his gross income over five years, to save 1600 bucks in taxes, your 4400 dollars in the hole if you didn't need the tractor.

 

[eric]

Truth hurts? What did I ever do to give you the notion that I am one bit ashamed of my situation? You started with one cow to make a living? Nothing wrong with that. Doesnt make much sense, but to each his own. If you only had one cow,and made a living and paid your bills, then your land must have been given to you, since I doubt you made much of a living off of the one cow. Or did you have another job? If you had another job, then surely you didnt write off any expenses from that one cow did you?

Maybe you're right, maybe the truth does hurt.

 

[J]

Yeah how exactly did you make a living on that ONE cow? :shock: There was a time that I only had one cow too and believe me, there ain't no money being made there. Unless maybe I didn't make any money with her because I wasn't one of the BIG BOYS. :lol:

Did I read that right? CB started out as a hobby farmer/rancher?

 

[Grippie]

Truth hurts don't it. I started with one cow my goal wasn't to get out of paying property taxes in the city. It was to make a living.
If its your hobby admit it and pay your taxes just like the golfer or bass fisherman, quit acting like you are some kind of farmer/rancher.
It's like the guy that buys the tractor to save on taxes, spends 30 grand to write off 6 grand off his gross income over five years, to save 1600 bucks in taxes, your 4400 dollars in the hole if you didn't need the tractor.

I bet you made quite a comfortable living from that one cow... Were you "tax exempt" when you had that one cow? If not, when did you make the decision that you were a "real farmer" and not a "one cow wonder"? If you started with one cow and did nothing else to suppiment your income, wifey must of been floating the bills. Excuse us wannabes for trying to work while building our farms. I guess we should all regroup- buy one cow, quit our jobs and call ourselves farmers.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Truth hurts? What did I ever do to give you the notion that I am one bit ashamed of my situation? You started with one cow to make a living? Nothing wrong with that. Doesnt make much sense, but to each his own. If you only had one cow,and made a living and paid your bills, then your land must have been given to you, since I doubt you made much of a living off of the one cow. Or did you have another job? If you had another job, then surely you didnt write off any expenses from that one cow did you?

Maybe you're right, maybe the truth does hurt.

I bought the land with timber and turned it into pasture which was a common method for many years.
It is one thing to write off operating expenses and running it as a business, its still about making a profit with one or a hundred. To use it to get out of taxes is just another leach on society.
There are a lot of part timers that operate there cattle as a business. Hats off to these guys the others just want the hat.

 

[eric]

Truth hurts? What did I ever do to give you the notion that I am one bit ashamed of my situation? You started with one cow to make a living? Nothing wrong with that. Doesnt make much sense, but to each his own. If you only had one cow,and made a living and paid your bills, then your land must have been given to you, since I doubt you made much of a living off of the one cow. Or did you have another job? If you had another job, then surely you didnt write off any expenses from that one cow did you?

Maybe you're right, maybe the truth does hurt.

I bought the land with timber and turned it into pasture which was a common method for many years.
It is one thing to write off operating expenses and running it as a business, its still about making a profit with one or a hundred. To use it to get out of taxes is just another leach on society.
There are a lot of part timers that operate there cattle as a business. Hats off to these guys the others just want the hat.

Sounds like you already have the hat, or did others pass it around for you?
You made a living off of the money you got from the timber rights? Jeez, didnt realize you were one of the largest landholders in Tx.
Noticed you avoided the question....when did you decide to call yourself a rancher and not a hobbiest? Was it the 2nd cow..the third?

 

[J]

Truth hurts? What did I ever do to give you the notion that I am one bit ashamed of my situation? You started with one cow to make a living? Nothing wrong with that. Doesnt make much sense, but to each his own. If you only had one cow,and made a living and paid your bills, then your land must have been given to you, since I doubt you made much of a living off of the one cow. Or did you have another job? If you had another job, then surely you didnt write off any expenses from that one cow did you?

Maybe you're right, maybe the truth does hurt.

I bought the land with timber and turned it into pasture which was a common method for many years.
It is one thing to write off operating expenses and running it as a business, its still about making a profit with one or a hundred. To use it to get out of taxes is just another leach on society.
There are a lot of part timers that operate there cattle as a business. Hats off to these guys the others just want the hat.

OK now I'm confused. Am I a rancher or a hobbiest? I work full time "in town" but operate my cattle like a business. None of the money made when cattle are sold is used for anything else. It ALL goes back into the place.(cattle, fertilizer, fencing, etc. & whatever else pops up) Someone help, tell me what my title is.
Oh yeah when I bought my land it wasn't ag exempt. I went thru the necessary steps to get it that way though. Should I call the county and see if it can be changed back?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Truth hurts? What did I ever do to give you the notion that I am one bit ashamed of my situation? You started with one cow to make a living? Nothing wrong with that. Doesnt make much sense, but to each his own. If you only had one cow,and made a living and paid your bills, then your land must have been given to you, since I doubt you made much of a living off of the one cow. Or did you have another job? If you had another job, then surely you didnt write off any expenses from that one cow did you?

Maybe you're right, maybe the truth does hurt.

I bought the land with timber and turned it into pasture which was a common method for many years.
It is one thing to write off operating expenses and running it as a business, its still about making a profit with one or a hundred. To use it to get out of taxes is just another leach on society.
There are a lot of part timers that operate there cattle as a business. Hats off to these guys the others just want the hat.

Sounds like you already have the hat, or did others pass it around for you?
You made a living off of the money you got from the timber rights? Jeez, didnt realize you were one of the largest landholders in Tx.
Noticed you avoided the question....when did you decide to call yourself a rancher and not a hobbiest? Was it the 2nd cow..the third?

Eric you show your ignorance again about timber you need to get out of that Dallas suburb. You bought land sold the maketable timber to pay for the land and clearing. I know this is a tough concept for you but you can actually get the land and cattle to pay for themselves and not have to prop them up with a machine shop.
Never considered following the business a hobby. Not one acre of my land was given or inheirted I earned it the old fashion way I worked the land and the land paid for itself. I lied I do have two inheirted acres that joins my property.
You can't admit you are not ranchers it kills you.
Your one of the guys that drives to feed store and hangs around to talk to the cattlemen and try to impress them.

 

[cmjust0]

As I recall, Caustic, didn't you say once that you started your cattle raising career with one bred cow when you were 16??

Out of curiosity, who's forage was that cow grazing?

 

[Caustic Burno]

As I recall, Caustic, didn't you say once that you started your cattle raising career with one bred cow when you were 16??

Out of curiosity, who's forage was that cow grazing?

I paid for pasture lease out out of my wages from working for a large ranch in high school. The old rancher I worked for made sure everthing that I did with that cow I counted every cost. I had a nice size herd for a kid by the time I got out of high school. I had several great mentors and cattle was business and all else was BS, it was about making money.

 

[eric]

Eric you show your ignorance again about timber you need to get out of that Dallas suburb. You bought land sold the maketable timber to pay for the land and clearing. I know this is a tough concept for you but you can actually get the land and cattle to pay for themselves and not have to prop them up with a machine shop.
Never considered following the business a hobby. Not one acre of my land was given or inheirted I earned it the old fashion way I worked the land and the land paid for itself. I lied I do have two inheirted acres that joins my property.
You can't admit you are not ranchers it kills you.
Your one of the guys that drives to feed store and hangs around to talk to the cattlemen and try to impress them.

So you bought the land, sold the timber for more than you paid for the land, made enough from the timber to pay for the rest of the clearing of the land, and then made enough from the timber to buy cattle with? Damn son, you must have some of Jack's magic beans to make trees grow that fast.
Or are you gonna admit in another post that you lied about that too? Your lies are all running together now, I am not sure what's true and what isnt.

As far as driving to the feed store and impressing the cattle men, what could I possibly do to impress them? And when do I have time to hang around feed stores? Heck its getting harder and harder to find time to check this forum as often as I would like.

I will admit I am not a rancher, never claimed to be. Won't ever find a post of mine ever claiming to be someone I am not. Can the same be said of you? But I did buy my own property, and didnt "inherit 2 acres" from anyone.

Go ahead and slam once more, but i am out of here because I dont want Macon to think this is a mud slingin match, and mostly because it's almost lunch time!! :lol:

 

[TheLazyM]

Truth hurts don't it. I started with one cow my goal wasn't to get out of paying property taxes in the city. It was to make a living.
If its your hobby admit it and pay your taxes just like the golfer or bass fisherman, quit acting like you are some kind of farmer/rancher.
It's like the guy that buys the tractor to save on taxes, spends 30 grand to write off 6 grand off his gross income over five years, to save 1600 bucks in taxes, your 4400 dollars in the hole if you didn't need the tractor.

the truth of it is i'm good at my other jobs and dang good at raising cattle. i dont know it all but i dont have major or pest problems. i dont have flies or worms. i take very good animals to the sell. i have feedlots coming out and buying my animals.

i dont see tax exeption to be a leech. its the folks that get back more than they paid in. now thats a leech. you know as well as i do there is better money in putting money into the farm than a tractor to get tax credit, but add the tractor into everything else is sure helps to make more of that dollar we are all chasing. thats the name of the game aint it? you and i both know you deduct evey single thing that you can.

i started with 3 bottle calves. now i run a minuim of 20 cows a year. i buy,sell,and trade cattle all year long. i buy hay and feed all year long as well. its kinda nice to beable to deduct what i spend to off set for my profits i dont think that the interrest that i pay for my land should be any different, do you?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Eric you show your ignorance again about timber you need to get out of that Dallas suburb. You bought land sold the maketable timber to pay for the land and clearing. I know this is a tough concept for you but you can actually get the land and cattle to pay for themselves and not have to prop them up with a machine shop.
Never considered following the business a hobby. Not one acre of my land was given or inheirted I earned it the old fashion way I worked the land and the land paid for itself. I lied I do have two inheirted acres that joins my property.
You can't admit you are not ranchers it kills you.
Your one of the guys that drives to feed store and hangs around to talk to the cattlemen and try to impress them.

So you bought the land, sold the timber for more than you paid for the land, made enough from the timber to pay for the rest of the clearing of the land, and then made enough from the timber to buy cattle with? be nice son, you must have some of Jack's magic beans to make trees grow that fast.
Or are you gonna admit in another post that you lied about that too? Your lies are all running together now, I am not sure what's true and what isnt.

As far as driving to the feed store and impressing the cattle men, what could I possibly do to impress them? And when do I have time to hang around feed stores? Heck its getting harder and harder to find time to check this forum as often as I would like.

I will admit I am not a rancher, never claimed to be. Won't ever find a post of mine ever claiming to be someone I am not. Can the same be said of you? But I did buy my own property, and didnt "inherit 2 acres" from anyone.

Go ahead and slam once more, but i am out of here because I dont want Macon to think this is a mud slingin match, and mostly because it's almost lunch time!! :lol:

Yea bought land sold the timber paid for the land and clearing was common practice.
Thanks for being truthful on the rancher part, there is nothing wrong with being a hobby rancher either, I just have a problem with people who use there hobby to cheat paying there fair share.

 

[cmjust0]

I paid for pasture lease out out of my wages from working for a large ranch in high school. The old rancher I worked for made sure everthing that I did with that cow I counted every cost. I had a nice size herd for a kid by the time I got out of high school. I had several great mentors and cattle was business and all else was BS, it was about making money.

So you worked for what you got, but did you ever consider that your employer knew full well that he wasn't just giving you a job -- but a big opportunity?

Now, I don't think you'll find anybody here riding your ass for taking that opportunity, but what I fail to understand is why you believe that having been given that opportunity grants you the right to belittle those of us who weren't?

Maybe you feel like you absolutely earned 101% of your advantage over us hobby guys by working on that ranch, Caustic, but I'd be interested to hear the owner's take on what he's owed for your success...

You didn't chew your own cord in two, Caustic. You had help along the way just like the rest of us. All I can say is that you're lucky none of your own benefactors had as much contempt for you as you seem to have for most of us.

 

[redfornow]

I think you guys are forgetting why most of "us" raise cattle. Don't make no diference how much I lose on the cattle, it still would be less than the taxes I would pay if I lost my ag exemption. And the higher the feed bill goes, the more I write off come April. Granted, in a perfect world, cattle prices would be high and feed bills would be low and I'd have a huge profit every year to claim and pay income taxes on while still keeping the property tax bill low, but this aint a perfect world. But compared to a $20k -$25k tax bill every year, the price of a few cows going down aint gonna make me get rid of em. Like was said earlier, I believe the hobby raisers will weather this storm better than the guys who depend on the cows for their sole income.

You write off 25k to save 5k in taxes thats not very wise money management you lost 19k. There are more wise investments as tax shelters than cattle.
If you are using cattle for a tax shelter you are losing your butt.
The name of the game is profit, not for every dollar I spend in ag to save 28 cents.
Hobby guys around here are starting to fold after two years of drought and no one has hay to sell them.

What??? I think you have it backwards. I write off $2k in cow expenses in order to save 25k in property taxes. I got neighbors around me on the 5 acre lots w/o the ag exemption paying around 16k in property taxes each yr. I pay less than 1/2 that on 4 times the acreage. I dont live in $500 an acre cattle country.

If thats your property taxes in Texas you are trying to ranch in the city and shouldn't be eligable for the tax excemption in the first place. If you have a 100 acres thats 2500 dollars an acre when the state average is 200 for improved pasture not under ag.
I totally think the state should visit ever one of these ag exceptions and stop this hobby use for tax evasion.

In KY the tax man visits. lol
When I applied for my ag ex. the Land valuation adminatrator sp? came out to to have a look. Like any business, I must show a profit every four years, or prove that I am making a go of it. I have arrived at a SMALL yes I said it SMALL profit in year number three. lol
The thing most new guys forget is the setup costs, unless you are born on a farm with everything in place, nothing is to expensive, you just get nickel and dimed to death one item at a time one day at a time.
I try to look at expenses from two directions. One the cost of a cow on a yearly basis, two setup expenses. Items that if I do it right, take from the bottom line this year, but will not have to be done again. (I am hoping)


MD

 

[Caustic Burno]

I paid for pasture lease out out of my wages from working for a large ranch in high school. The old rancher I worked for made sure everthing that I did with that cow I counted every cost. I had a nice size herd for a kid by the time I got out of high school. I had several great mentors and cattle was business and all else was BS, it was about making money.

So you worked for what you got, but did you ever consider that your employer knew full well that he wasn't just giving you a job -- but a big opportunity?

Now, I don't think you'll find anybody here riding your ass for taking that opportunity, but what I fail to understand is why you believe that having been given that opportunity grants you the right to belittle those of us who weren't?

Maybe you feel like you absolutely earned 101% of your advantage over us hobby guys by working on that ranch, Caustic, but I'd be interested to hear the owner's take on what he's owed for your success...

You didn't chew your own cord in two, Caustic. You had help along the way just like the rest of us. All I can say is that you're lucky none of your own benefactors had as much contempt for you as you seem to have for most of us.

I never had anything against anybody starting out in the cow business I have a problem with leachs and thieves and the pretenders. If you run cattle as a hobby thats fine and you admit it, quit doing it to steal what you rightfully owe in taxes.
Pay to Ceasar what is Ceasar's. If you choose to live in the city pay the tax, I had a couple the other day want to buy a couple of cows to get there ag excemption thats a thief plan and simple.
One of the greatest cattleman I ever knew didn't own a cow, but he wasn't putting on the charade either.

 

[J]

I paid for pasture lease out out of my wages from working for a large ranch in high school. The old rancher I worked for made sure everthing that I did with that cow I counted every cost. I had a nice size herd for a kid by the time I got out of high school. I had several great mentors and cattle was business and all else was BS, it was about making money.

So you worked for what you got, but did you ever consider that your employer knew full well that he wasn't just giving you a job -- but a big opportunity?

Now, I don't think you'll find anybody here riding your ass for taking that opportunity, but what I fail to understand is why you believe that having been given that opportunity grants you the right to belittle those of us who weren't?

Maybe you feel like you absolutely earned 101% of your advantage over us hobby guys by working on that ranch, Caustic, but I'd be interested to hear the owner's take on what he's owed for your success...

You didn't chew your own cord in two, Caustic. You had help along the way just like the rest of us. All I can say is that you're lucky none of your own benefactors had as much contempt for you as you seem to have for most of us.

I never had anything against anybody starting out in the cow business I have a problem with leachs and thieves and the pretenders. If you run cattle as a hobby thats fine and you admit it, quit doing it to steal what you rightfully owe in taxes.
Pay to Ceasar what is Ceasar's. If you choose to live in the city pay the tax, I had a couple the other day want to buy a couple of cows to get there ag excemption thats a thief plan and simple.
One of the greatest cattleman I ever knew didn't own a cow, but he wasn't putting on the charade either.

Who are you to judge what is a "theif plan" and what is not?There is a written set of rules that make it ok (legal) for that couple to do just that or else they wouldn't be able to do it right?

What is your position on farm subsidies?