Cattle: Generations

[fhug]

How many generations must one produce before they can be considered a real breeder? And I’m talking phenotype and quality of animal, not epd’s. I say at least 4 generations of your own doing. Proof that your decision making has been good or when poor, you corrected it (culling). You can change epd’s in two generations, especially in a small herd, but that doesn’t mean you’ve created good cattle. I think by the fourth generation a lot of your bad breedings will come to light; poor udders, bad feet, narrow hips, lack of rib, poor breed back.

Would a 100 year old mostly commercial herd that raises its own replacement heifers count? The only epds are on the bulls being used. And a lot of those the past 20 years have been home grown from the registered herd, which runs along side and is managed like the commercial herd.

 

[Till-Hill]

We calved out bunch of 4th generation deals here this year and 1 5th. I'm 34 and used to use sexed semen harder than I do now. I will tell you my raised cattle usually out shine our cows we bought. I have been impressed with some embryos we have bought tho to. We got work to do yet but it takes time

 

[Nesikep]

Here's the family tree of my best maternal line, sorted by generation on the mother's side, I can take a picture with 4 generations of that line in it

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Define breeder? I have cattle that have 3 generations of my prefix in them. I have yet to breed the perfect cow or bull.

Based upon the 4 generation rule, you would be classified as a Jr Breeder. :lol2:

I spent a few years thinking those pretty bulls in the semen catalogs had to be good Gator.

 

[Ebenezer]

It would stink to have a handful of bulls getting $500/straw, and the rest getting $2.

Might be the most truthful valuation. $2 is about the risk factor one needs to spend on either a young, mediocre or unproven bull. You've got costs to AI and if the calves are duds you have losses. Send most calves from the $2 bulls into feedlots or use as brood cows or commerical mamas to see if the new bull is going to be worth $500 some decade. $500 would not be too bad for a bull with prepotency, high accuracy and no holes or known genetic defects. Use a straw or two and have a home raised son to bring home the bacon. Sure beats $40+/straw to hear that there was a lot of sort, there was a lot of variation, something in the next generation needs to be fixed or that he merely follows the cow in type.

 

[Son of Butch]

$2 is about the risk factor one needs to spend on either a young... or unproven bull.

For what it's worth...
IF young A.I. sire is worth $2 straw = $3 per pg Then what's the value of a purchased bull?
After all, both are unproven.
Let's pay the bull $3 for his semen and $27 to inseminate = $30 per pg x 30 per year = $900
900 + 1600 slaughter value = $2500

A.I. semen from proven sire $30 = $45 per pg x 30 cows = $1350
1350 + 1600 s.v. = $2,950

Over simplification, but even if you value your bull's service at $50 x 30 cows = $1500
It's hard to justify paying more than $1500 over slaughter price for a bull... isn't it?

 

[Bcompton53]

It would stink to have a handful of bulls getting $500/straw, and the rest getting $2.

Might be the most truthful valuation. $2 is about the risk factor one needs to spend on either a young, mediocre or unproven bull. You've got costs to AI and if the calves are duds you have losses. Send most calves from the $2 bulls into feedlots or use as brood cows or commerical mamas to see if the new bull is going to be worth $500 some decade. $500 would not be too bad for a bull with prepotency, high accuracy and no holes or known genetic defects. Use a straw or two and have a home raised son to bring home the bacon. Sure beats $40+/straw to hear that there was a lot of sort, there was a lot of variation, something in the next generation needs to be fixed or that he merely follows the cow in type.

Yeah, pricing seems to be more political sometimes. A young bull with accuracies in the .2-.4 is $40 a straw, while a proven bull is $20. Even if the proven bull doesn't do what I want I'd still rather use him, because I'd know what to expect. Now, I'm in a different boat than some, as I'm building a herd from a mix of sale barn cattle. So I am wanting a reliable genetic base to build from in the future. Maybe when the "future" comes I'll be more willing to roll the dice on young bulls.

 

[Ebenezer]

$2 is about the risk factor one needs to spend on either a young... or unproven bull.

For what it's worth...
IF young A.I. sire is worth $2 straw = $3 per pg Then what's the value of a purchased bull?
After all, both are unproven.
Let's pay the bull $3 for his semen and $27 to inseminate = $30 per pg x 30 per year = $900
900 + 1600 slaughter value = $2500

A.I. semen from proven sire $30 = $45 per pg x 30 cows = $1350
1350 + 1600 s.v. = $2,950

Over simplification, but even if you value your bull's service at $50 x 30 cows = $1500
It's hard to justify paying more than $1500 over slaughter price for a bull... isn't it?

Only one year per bull? And those AI calves: -$25 each for AI certificate costs to register versus the owned bull.

 

[gcreekrch]

Define breeder? I have cattle that have 3 generations of my prefix in them. I have yet to breed the perfect cow or bull.

There never has been one and never will be.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Define breeder? I have cattle that have 3 generations of my prefix in them. I have yet to breed the perfect cow or bull.

There never has been one and never will be.

I have not give up yet. Gets boring if you give up.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Very good question, this is likely akin to one those philosophical questions to which there is no truly right or wrong answer, depending on how one applies the question.
For me, I think it would be a multi faceted question based on a number of factors. The first year someone is starting they may or may not have a lot of animal husbandry knowledge, yet putting a bull with some cows is in a sense breeding cattle.

ive seen guys like that, knock home runs on the first strike...out of dumb luck,, maybe...while that one breeder that's been doing it for years constantly chasing his tail.............that's me, I'm that one :cowboy:

 

[Ky hills]

Very good question, this is likely akin to one those philosophical questions to which there is no truly right or wrong answer, depending on how one applies the question.
For me, I think it would be a multi faceted question based on a number of factors. The first year someone is starting they may or may not have a lot of animal husbandry knowledge, yet putting a bull with some cows is in a sense breeding cattle.

ive seen guys like that, knock home runs on the first strike...out of dumb luck,, maybe...while that one breeder that's been doing it for years constantly chasing his tail.............that's me, I'm that one :cowboy:

There must be two of us

 

[Son of Butch]

$2 is about the risk factor one needs to spend on either a young... or unproven bull.

For what it's worth...
IF young A.I. sire is worth $2 straw = $3 per pg Then what's the value of a purchased bull?
After all, both are unproven.
Let's pay the bull $3 for his semen and $27 to inseminate = $30 per pg x 30 per year = $900
900 + 1600 slaughter value = $2500

A.I. semen from proven sire $30 = $45 per pg x 30 cows = $1350
1350 + 1600 s.v. = $2,950

Over simplification, but even if you value your bull's service at $50 x 30 cows = $1500
It's hard to justify paying more than $1500 over slaughter price for a bull... isn't it?

Only one year per bull?
And those AI calves: -$25 each for AI certificate costs to register versus the owned bull.

Each operation is different.
Not everybody registers calves, even those that do certainly not all, I mean why register steers?
Only did one year in the example, but don't forget to include feed expenses and risk factors of bull
getting sick or injured when keeping a bull each year when you do the math.

Will you (or anyone else) show the math justifying paying more than $1500 over slaughter price for a
young unproven bull?

I'd like to buy a more expensive bull, but can't justify it to myself.

 

[Ebenezer]

Will you (or anyone else) show the math justifying paying more than $1500 over slaughter price for a
young unproven bull?

You'll need to wait another week or so before he is allowed back!

 

[gcreekrch]

Define breeder? I have cattle that have 3 generations of my prefix in them. I have yet to breed the perfect cow or bull.

There never has been one and never will be.

I have not give up yet. Gets boring if you give up.

In full agreement with you.

A few years back we had sold our calves privately to an order buyer who is also an old friend...…..( outside of business deals....) We were weighing these calves at a local scale with a third party operating the scale. The buyer looked at the weight on the scale and commented that he wanted to walk through that group. We waited while he got among the calves and came back into the scale house. He asked the yard guy running the scale if he saw what the buyer saw. They both chuckled and I asked if there was something I should be doing different at home.

The buyer told me those calves were as deep as the ocean and longer than weiner pigs! Don't change a thing!

I did though, there are more and they are better now... and we are putting some white bulls into them this year.

 

[Nesikep]

There never has been one and never will be.

I have not give up yet. Gets boring if you give up.

In full agreement with you.

A few years back we had sold our calves privately to an order buyer who is also an old friend...…..( outside of business deals....) We were weighing these calves at a local scale with a third party operating the scale. The buyer looked at the weight on the scale and commented that he wanted to walk through that group. We waited while he got among the calves and came back into the scale house. He asked the yard guy running the scale if he saw what the buyer saw. They both chuckled and I asked if there was something I should be doing different at home.

The buyer told me those calves were as deep as the ocean and longer than weiner pigs! Don't change a thing!

I did though, there are more and they are better now... and we are putting some white bulls into them this year.

I'd like to see one of Backbone's bulls in your pasture.. sounds like a nice fit!

 

[CattleMan1920]

[image]330[/image]

Only the strong survive in the Angus game.....

 

[Ebenezer]

[image]330[/image]

Only the strong survive in the Angus game.....

Maybe you can advise them.

 

[CattleMan1920]

[image]330[/image]

Only the strong survive in the Angus game.....

Maybe you can advise them.

[image]332[/image]

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

All it takes is a marketable, consistant product at a reasonable price.