Castration

[Conagher]

a calf that is cut will have better meat. The meat wont get tough and the marbling will be better since steers tend to build more fat then muscle like a bull would. Also its temperment wouldnt be as bad as a bull full fledged on testosterone would be.

"better meat" is an interesting choice of words. Research certainly supports the increased marbling and less shear force for steers. This will drive a higher USDA grade. However, the same research indicates the consumer cannot detect the difference. Does this suggest our grading system is not aligned with the consumer eating experience?

I'm curious about the temperment comment of bulls that has been made a couple of times. I can comprehend the testosterone/aggression inference on mature animals of any species, however to be honest I do not detect a significant difference in my 6-8 month old bulls vs. the same age heifers at weaning time.

 

[Conagher]

depends on where you are, some places don't see a discount.

95% of tha sales I go to you will see a $10 to $15 discount for bulls vs. steers on the same size calves. The 95% of sale barns that discount are large barns with order buyers or feedlot buyers on special calf sale days who know right down to the penny how much buying bulls actually will hurt their bottom line. The 5% of the barns that do not discount are smaller sale barns running fewer head selling to people wanting to buy something to keep the grass down and then later butcher for themselves. It is the buyer that sets the discount value if the buyer doesn't know enough to see the loss of profit he will not discount for it. It is always amazing to me to watch how badly bulls are discounted yet cow calf men continue to sell them as bulls instead of cutting them. What they stand to gain far outweighs the costs associated with making steers out of them. I say cut them young when it is less stressful on them and put the profit in your pocket not mine.

I guess I'm still a bit confused. For example, if I have a steer calf weighing 600 lbs that I sale for $1.00/lb, I have $600. However, if I had left him as a bull research suggests he would weigh up to 19% more (let's say its only 15% for the example), then I have a bull that weighs 690 lbs. So he would only need to sell for ~ $0.87/lb to be equal to the steer; and this does not account for the labor, supplies, risk of loss, etc. required to make him a steer.

 

[AngusLimoX]

So he would only need to sell for ~ $0.87/lb to be equal to the steer; and this does not account for the labor, supplies, risk of loss, etc. required to make him a steer.

Show us where bulls bring .87.

ALX

 

[Bama]

From last weeks sale.

Feeder medium & large 2
617 pounds steer @108.30 = $668.21
725 pound bull @ 94.00 = $681.50

Figured without the additional weight gain on a smaller animal

Feeder Medium and large 2
479 pound bull 109.00 = $522.11
478 pound steer 114.16 = $545.68

$23 dollar differance, don't take much time off feed or additional weight gain to make that.


As you can see around here most people sell as bulls as it don't really pay to to make steers out of them.




Feeder Bulls Medium and Large 2
Head Wt Range Avg Wt Price Range Avg Price
1 200-250 210 140.00 140.00
3 250-300 288 135.00-138.00 135.95
7 300-350 335 122.00-125.00 123.22
12 350-400 380 114.00-121.50 116.88
15 400-450 426 110.00-114.50 112.45
8 450-500 479 109.00-111.00 109.94
1 450-500 475 104.50 104.50 Brahman X
9 500-550 536 105.00-107.50 106.32
2 550-600 568 102.50-104.00 103.24
1 550-600 580 98.00 98.00 Brahman X
1 600-650 645 98.00 98.00
2 600-650 625 94.00 94.00 Brahman X
1 650-700 660 97.00 97.00
1 700-750 725 94.00 94.00

Feeder Bulls Medium and Large 3
Head Wt Range Avg Wt Price Range Avg Price
6 300-350 320 115.00-120.00 116.52
8 350-400 377 110.00-113.00 111.29
6 400-450 430 106.00-108.00 106.82
7 450-500 472 104.50-107.00 105.44
4 500-550 530 101.50-103.00 102.12
2 700-750 728 89.00-91.00 90.02

Feeder Bulls Small and Medium 2
Head Wt Range Avg Wt Price Range Avg Price
3 300-350 333 117.00-119.00 118.34
5 350-400 381 111.00-112.00 111.50
4 400-450 435 106.50-109.50 108.02
4 450-500 484 106.00-107.00 106.37
6 500-550 528 103.00-104.50 103.67
8 550-600 579 98.00-100.50 99.37
2 600-650 630 95.00-95.50 95.25
1 650-700 660 92.50 92.50

Feeder Bulls Small and Medium 3
Head Wt Range Avg Wt Price Range Avg Price
5 350-400 382 105.00-108.00 106.38
4 400-450 435 103.00-104.50 103.62
5 450-500 474 101.50-103.50 102.40
6 500-550 537 96.00-99.00 98.02
6 550-600 578 92.00-95.00 93.57

Feeder Steers Medium and Large 2
Head Wt Range Avg Wt Price Range Avg Price
1 250-300 285 141.00 141.00
3 300-350 313 126.00-130.00 127.32
3 450-500 478 114.00-114.50 114.16
3 550-600 573 109.00-112.00 110.35
3 600-650 617 107.00-109.00 108.32
1 750-800 780 97.50 97.50

Feeder Steers Small and Medium 2
Head Wt Range Avg Wt Price Range Avg Price
2 450-500 482 110.00-111.50 110.77
3 500-550 532 107.00-108.50 107.67
1 550-600 575 100.00 100.00 Brahman X
1 600-650 640 103.00 103.00

 

[Conagher]

Thanks for the market data Bama.

ALX,
Most of the sale barns in our area do not break out the steers vs. bulls. They are just lumped together in the market reports since the cost difference is not significant. See example below.

Decatur, TX — June 18 (Special) Receipts at Decatur Livestock Market were 471 head including: 11 bulls, 37 cows, 10 calves, 75 stocker heifers, 73 stocker bulls/steers, 63 feeder heifers, 202 feeder bulls/steers. Average prices = $620

Is it possible for you to post results from one of the recent sales in your area? I'm just curious.

Thanks!

 

[BC]

Most of the sale barns in East Texas quaote the steers and bulls together. From my observation there is a $5 to $7 per cwt. difference between bulls and steers on calves weighting over 500 lbs.

I followed your thoughts on bulls bringing more dollars. You forgot that when you implant the steer , he will weigh close to what the bull calf would. It also helps with the grading on the quality grades once they are fat.

 

[AngusLimoX]

Is it possible for you to post results from one of the recent sales in your area? I'm just curious.

Thanks!

Well I didn't know if I could or not, I guess I can, so I am learning a lot in this thread! :lol:

SLAUGHTER CATTLE
From To High
Fancy Steers 99.00 103.00 104.50
Good to Choice Steers 94.00 98.00 .
Fancy Heifers 98.00 102.00 105.00
Good to Choice Heifers .
Aged & Medium Quality Cattle .
Dairy Types 50.00 65.00 .

Premium Grade Veal 90.00 105.00 114.00
Medium/Good Veal 75.00 90.00 .
Plain/Heavy Veal 65.00 75.00 .

Feed Lot Cows Rail Equiv: . . .
Beef Cows Rail Equiv: 103.00 50.00 60.00 70.00
Dairy Cows Rail Equiv: 93.00 47.00 50.00 52.00
Canners 35.00 45.00 .
Plainer Types 30.00 & down .
Bulls 48.00 58.00 60.00

REPLACEMENT CATTLE
From To High
Good Steers 1000 lbs. and up . . .
Steers 800 to 1000 lbs. 90.00 107.00 109.00
Steers 700 to 800 lbs. 95.00 115.00 120.00
Steer Calves 500 to 700 lbs. 110. 145.00 151.00
Steer Calves under 500 lbs. 125.00 145.00 152.00
Good Heifers 800 lbs. and up 90.00 104.00 105.00
Heifers 600 to 800 lbs. 97.00 120.00 125.00
Heifer Calves under 600 lbs. 111.00 125.00 128.00
Plain, Fleshy & Aged Types Discounted . . .

I don't get to the barns much, but it would likely be some small group or individual bulls coming from somewhere not able or unwilling to castrate that you would see here. They would be docked heavy.

Finding all the regional stuff very interesting.

ALX

 

[Conagher]

Most of the sale barns in East Texas quaote the steers and bulls together. From my observation there is a $5 to $7 per cwt. difference between bulls and steers on calves weighting over 500 lbs.

I followed your thoughts on bulls bringing more dollars. You forgot that when you implant the steer , he will weigh close to what the bull calf would. It also helps with the grading on the quality grades once they are fat.

BC,
The research I have reviewed supports the additional weight gain from implanted steers as you state above. However, if I recall correctly the research noted a high dependency on when the castration took place (earlier the better). But I still struggle with the labor/expense/risk aspect required of the steering process just to get back to where I would have been if I had not castrated the bull. In your experience does the hormonal implant limit your market (natural beef guys, etc.)?

Agree also that the research supports the better grading; unfortunately a cow/calf operation that sells weaning calves by the pound is not compensated for this quality.

Thanks!

 

[Dave]

Here the lower price vs. the weight gain probably comes down on the side of steers most of the time but not always. However, once the bulls get over 700 pounds the price difference becomes dramatic. Anyone who leaves them bulls and takes them to the sale at 800-900 pounds takes a real beating.

 

[BC]

When I sell at the sale barn, the "natural" beef deal does not come into play. Calves that are bought at sale barns are for the most part mass treated upon arrival at their new home
as a precautionary step.

 

[somn]

depends on where you are, some places don't see a discount.

95% of tha sales I go to you will see a $10 to $15 discount for bulls vs. steers on the same size calves. The 95% of sale barns that discount are large barns with order buyers or feedlot buyers on special calf sale days who know right down to the penny how much buying bulls actually will hurt their bottom line. The 5% of the barns that do not discount are smaller sale barns running fewer head selling to people wanting to buy something to keep the grass down and then later butcher for themselves. It is the buyer that sets the discount value if the buyer doesn't know enough to see the loss of profit he will not discount for it. It is always amazing to me to watch how badly bulls are discounted yet cow calf men continue to sell them as bulls instead of cutting them. What they stand to gain far outweighs the costs associated with making steers out of them. I say cut them young when it is less stressful on them and put the profit in your pocket not mine.

I guess I'm still a bit confused. For example, if I have a steer calf weighing 600 lbs that I sale for $1.00/lb, I have $600. However, if I had left him as a bull research suggests he would weigh up to 19% more (let's say its only 15% for the example), then I have a bull that weighs 690 lbs. So he would only need to sell for ~ $0.87/lb to be equal to the steer; and this does not account for the labor, supplies, risk of loss, etc. required to make him a steer.

Little thing called compudose, synovex, encore. I think the math is simple $12 spent on castration and implants and another $7.20 for 1% death loss as result of castration provides an additional $60 income. Never seen 1% due to castration but a person has got to figure something.

A bull in a feedlot and a implanted steer brought in at identical weights the steer will leave the yard 125 pounds heavier. The bull will leave with a ugly head, fine hair, and a bad attitude. If the head didn't catch the buyers eye the fine hair surely will. All of those things equal a $10 to $15 cwt dock from the kill plant. So many people say so what you claim you pay $10 to $15 cwt less as calves so it is even. Well they are correct problem is I docked you $10 cwt on 6 weights they docked me $10 cwt on 14 weights that weighed 125 pounds less than they could have. If neither of us cut the bulls you lost $60 I lost $240. Sure cutting benifits me more than it does you but it is easier on the calf and us humans if they are cut early.


Same goes with putting calves into a pen with solid ground a week or two before sale date. Most ranchers leave them out in the pasture until the day before the sale so they can eat free grass instead of having to feed hay. Putting them in a pen provides no benefit for the rancher but it does me. I will pay extra for calves taken out of the pasture and on solid ground if they are announced that way into the ring. Sometimes it isn't always so much about how will this help me directly it is more about how will this help me indirectly. I'm not saying I will pay you enough to buy all the hay as I have no idea what your cost of hay will be but I will pay more for the calves. Even if you could just run them up onto solid ground for a couple hours a day I would pay more.

 

[Conagher]

I hope Sewall has received sufficient information from this thread to pursue the direction that is right for his operation.

I just want to say I really appreciate this discussion and insight from others. It has helped me view a different perspective and I thank you for that.

For BC, somn, Bama, AngusLimoX and others:
I cannot help but wonder if there could be a win-win scenario for the cow/calf producer and the stocker/feeder operation. What about this proposal: Castrate on the day of the sale. The cow/calf producer benefits from additional weight gain of the bull + is not docked. The stocker/feeder gets their steer to produce a higher grading product. The loss risk would transfer to the stocker/feeder but that is probably appropriate since they stand to gain the most. I could even envision this as a value added service a sale barn might offer; thus generating more revenue for the barn as well. Barn charges fee of say $7 to $12 per head for the service. Cow/calf producer receives $20-30/per head net for the steer vs. bull. Stocker/feeder operation get's their higher grading steer.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[dun]

I hope Sewall has received sufficient information from this thread to pursue the direction that is right for his operation.

I just want to say I really appreciate this discussion and insight from others. It has helped me view a different perspective and I thank you for that.

For BC, somn, Bama, AngusLimoX and others:
I cannot help but wonder if there could be a win-win scenario for the cow/calf producer and the stocker/feeder operation. What about this proposal: Castrate on the day of the sale. The cow/calf producer benefits from additional weight gain of the bull + is not docked. The stocker/feeder gets their steer to produce a higher grading product. The loss risk would transfer to the stocker/feeder but that is probably appropriate since they stand to gain the most. I could even envision this as a value added service a sale barn might offer; thus generating more revenue for the barn as well. Barn charges fee of say $7 to $12 per head for the service. Cow/calf producer receives $20-30/per head net for the steer vs. bull. Stocker/feeder operation get's their higher grading steer.

Any thoughts on this?

Most feeders wouldn;t buy a calf that is freshly cut, they want them healed up.
The dock for a bull is bad enough, freshly cut would be even more.
If the feederwants a freswhly cut calf thye would buy bulls and cut them themselves, just like they do now

 

[AngusLimoX]

Any thoughts on this?

Money is important but I have to feel I've done right by my cattle and to me ( and my vet ) the most humane method is banding soon after birth.

I'd rather get my gains by good breeding and good feed than by implants but that is just me.

ALX

 

[BC]

I hope Sewall has received sufficient information from this thread to pursue the direction that is right for his operation.

I just want to say I really appreciate this discussion and insight from others. It has helped me view a different perspective and I thank you for that.

For BC, somn, Bama, AngusLimoX and others:
I cannot help but wonder if there could be a win-win scenario for the cow/calf producer and the stocker/feeder operation. What about this proposal: Castrate on the day of the sale. The cow/calf producer benefits from additional weight gain of the bull + is not docked. The stocker/feeder gets their steer to produce a higher grading product. The loss risk would transfer to the stocker/feeder but that is probably appropriate since they stand to gain the most. I could even envision this as a value added service a sale barn might offer; thus generating more revenue for the barn as well. Barn charges fee of say $7 to $12 per head for the service. Cow/calf producer receives $20-30/per head net for the steer vs. bull. Stocker/feeder operation get's their higher grading steer.

Any thoughts on this?

If you let your calves get bigger than 500 lbs and do not castrate, then you (cow/calf producer) are going to AND should receive a dock. In my opinion, the dock has not been severe enough to cause the cow/calf man to do what is needed for the beef industry. I have bought bulls at $7.00 per cwt behind the steers and from personal experience of slower recuperating time feel that dock should be more. A fresh cut calf at the sale is a recipe for disaster. I would prefer to cut him and turn on clean grass and shade. Why should the cow/calf man shuck his responsibility to help the overall beef industry?

 

[Bama]

I guess I should add if I have one on mama I do cut or band. The ones I leave alone are the ones I buy as lightweights.

 

[CowpokeJ]

Has anyone cut and not implanted vs. cut and implanted?

 

[Bez>]

Has anyone cut and not implanted vs. cut and implanted?

We used to cut and then use Ralgro. There was a slight gain but our numbers were not great enough to justify the expense plus the handling.

We switched about 5 years ago and used rings on their nuts until about two years ago. It worked well, and was easy but we did not implant and lost the gains.

Now we simply leave them whole until around 400 pounds and cut them. We do not implant - the books tell us we could but I am hesitant to use implants because many of our foreign buyers will not accept cattle that have been implanted.

This "new system" - only to us - works on this place.

Bez>