Capacity/Efficiency

[novatech]

I have always tried to select cattle that have good spring of rib and length making them high capacity cattle. They tend to be easy fleshing and go into winter with the reserves necessary. Yesterday while looking at one of my cows, the Goodyear Blimp, that this ultra high capacity cow may not be the most efficient way to go. High capacity also means high consumption. So as far as capacity goes is there limit? Or maybe cattle with a little less capacity are more efficient?

 

[backhoeboogie]

Get along little doggy?

It seems high capacity cows breed back quicker for me. One in particular I remember looked like she had swallowed a barrel. She calved every 11 months and was always healthy up until her teeth were worn out. Best money maker I ever owned. Picked her up heavy bred and only took her because she was so cheap. She indeed looked like a doggy but I didn't know her history.

There's merit to what you are saying.

 

[KNERSIE]

Higher capacity cattle are easier doing because they can consume larger quantities of slow digesting low quality forage. Without enough capacity cattle can starve with a full rumen, because they don't get enough nutrients out of the amount of LOW QUALITY roughage they can digest in a day.

If your forage is always good and you never have to rely on straw or low quality hay or leafs or other woody plants they can browse, then you'll get away without that added capacity.

In selecting for capacity you are selecting for cattle that can serve a specific purpose under specific conditions and be efficient at that. There is quite a difference between that type of efficiency and absolute FCR in a feedlot growth test and the correlation between the two is relatively low.

 

[novatech]

So what I gather is that the larger rumen system does not necessarily mean they eat more but their system is slower thus utilizing more nutrients from what they eat. This would imply that they had better efficiency/conversion than a cow with less capacity?

 

[Limomike]

I have always tried to select cattle that have good spring of rib and length making them high capacity cattle. They tend to be easy fleshing and go into winter with the reserves necessary. Yesterday while looking at one of my cows, the Goodyear Blimp, that this ultra high capacity cow may not be the most efficient way to go. High capacity also means high consumption. So as far as capacity goes is there limit? Or maybe cattle with a little less capacity are more efficient?

Nova, I think as far as high capacity goes.. it would only mean high consumption, and thats about it. As far as being more or less efficient, I would not think there would be any difference. But that is just my opinion... maybe we can get some "expert" to chime in here and explain if there is any difference. Good question though....... :|

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Higher capacity cattle are easier doing because they can consume larger quantities of slow digesting low quality forage.

• Without enough capacity cattle can starve with a full rumen, because they don't get enough nutrients out of the amount of LOW QUALITY roughage they can digest in a day.

If your forage is always good and you never have to rely on straw or low quality hay or leafs or other woody plants they can browse, then you'll get away without that added capacity.

In selecting for capacity you are selecting for cattle that can serve a specific purpose under specific conditions and be efficient at that. There is quite a difference between that type of efficiency and absolute FCR in a feedlot growth test and the correlation between the two is relatively low.

exactly

 

[KNERSIE]

So what I gather is that the larger rumen system does not necessarily mean they eat more but their system is slower thus utilizing more nutrients from what they eat. This would imply that they had better efficiency/conversion than a cow with less capacity?

No, you misunderstood me, how fast or slow the forage is digested depends on the quality (carbohydrates and protein) of the forage. Better quality forage means a happier environment for the microbes in the rumen means there are more microbes that hastens the process. (put very simply)

Low quality forage like straw takes longer to digest, partly because of less microbes and also because the cellulose takes longer to break down so the rumen stays full longer, meaning the animal needs to consume more to get the neccesary nutrients. If the said animal don't have the capacity to eat more of the low quality forage they start drawing on reserves losing condition whilst the others with more rumen capacity can maintain themselves.

 

[novatech]

So what I gather is that the larger rumen system does not necessarily mean they eat more but their system is slower thus utilizing more nutrients from what they eat. This would imply that they had better efficiency/conversion than a cow with less capacity?

No, you misunderstood me, how fast or slow the forage is digested depends on the quality (carbohydrates and protein) of the forage. Better quality forage means a happier environment for the microbes in the rumen means there are more microbes that hastens the process. (put very simply)

Low quality forage like straw takes longer to digest, partly because of less microbes and also because the cellulose takes longer to break down so the rumen stays full longer, meaning the animal needs to consume more to get the neccesary nutrients. If the said animal don't have the capacity to eat more of the low quality forage they start drawing on reserves losing condition whilst the others with more rumen capacity can maintain themselves.

Thanks. That clears it up for me.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I also agree with Knersie - and to add to that, even if you do have great forages, a cow needs enough capacity to have space for the calf in her & still have enough left over to consume & digest the roughage diet. When you start raising "gutless wonders", they need more concentrates (grain) because it does not take up as much space in their gut, giving them the nutrients they need to maintain their body condition.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

Knersie and Jeanne have summed it up as well as possible.

Mike, I would add that the high capacity cow that is true to her efficient probability will stay as fleshy on average grass as a low capacity cow will on three gallons of creep per day.

 

[East Caney]

I'm a big believer that high capacity animals thrive better in my environment. Northeast Texas, as a retired Dean of Ag Science put it, is "grass growing country". The problem, however, is that the grass isn't as powerful as that grass found out further into West Texas and other areas of the country. And while it may not be necessary for others, I need that trait in my herd. I'm in love with the bull I just bought. Though he has his flaws, he looks like he just swallowed a 55 gallon drum. I'm hoping he'll produce some easy keeping daughters.

Here ar a couple of interesting things I've noticed. Though the grass is very strong in Colorado, the Lasater Ranch Beefmaster cows all seem to have great spring of rib. I think the reason is their winter feeding program. They supplement protein and only feed hay when snow cover prohibits grazing. I think the cows gain their capacity because of the program...making the cows clean up dormant grasses in large quantities to survive the winter.

The second thing I noticed is a lack of rib spring in bulls put on a feed test. Any thoughts on this as it pertains to capacity and efficiency?

EC

 

[milkmaid]

Out of curiousity, anyone ever noticed cows tend to get a wider, deeper barrel as they age? would that mean older cows are generally more efficient than younger cows?

And along the lines of what EC said about cows gaining capacity because of the environment they live in... dun mentioned once that it's best to raise cattle in the environment they're expected to perform in. Could one raise some big-barreled easy keeping cows just because of how they're raised? if so, should we be raising replacements differently? also, can we force mature cows to conform to an environment by different management, and if so, how long would it take and would there be a maximum age where cows can be "modified"?

So from what Harley and Jeanne are saying, a big-barreled cow may not eat less than a "gutless wonder", but the big-barreled cow can survive on much lower quality feed than the gutless wonder can, and on high quality feed, the big barreled cow will gain faster and do better than the gutless wonder because she has an easier time getting the nutrition she needs? like how lightweight/bottle calves need grain because their rumen isn't big enough to get all the protein they need from hay, whereas larger calves can get what they need from hay and won't be potbellied? is potbellied even a terrible thing then, or can it be useful in moderation?

I'm just thinking 'on paper' tonight. Very interesting idea, nova.

I won't be taking any nutrition classes until next fall at the earliest, so all I can do right now is ask questions. :lol2:

 

[dun]

I got lost in MMs post so I'll only address the part I understood.
If the genertics aren;t there, a heifer no matter how she's raised won;t develop the large barrel. Our heifers are fed grain for around 6-8 weeks post weaning then turned out with the cow herd for the winter. They're expected to develop and be ready to breed at 14 months and stay in decent condition as 2 year olds and be over conditioned from just pasture as mature cows. We have bought heifers at weaning and raised them the same as our own, most of them don;t develop the body and easy keeping that we want. The majority of ours do except those from one bull that we used a couple of years ago. The last of his daughters will be hitting the bricks come spring.
Another thought.
When people talk about cow weight and squawk about 1600 pound cows, they rarely consider BCS. We've selected for easy keeping attributes and a number of our cows will wean a 700+ pound calf, weigh 1500-1600 pounds at weaning and stay in BCS of 6 plus. That's on pasture without supplements. This year our calves weaned eavier then in years past and most of the older cows gained weight while raising their calf. That's because this was an unbelievable grass year. We still have pastures with grass up to my knees.

 

[KNERSIE]

Out of curiousity, anyone ever noticed cows tend to get a wider, deeper barrel as they age? would that mean older cows are generally more efficient than younger cows?

No they don't get more efficient, they just mature and with maturity they'll also become easier doing because they don't have to teeth anymore or grow anymore while expected to raise a calf and breed back.

And along the lines of what EC said about cows gaining capacity because of the environment they live in... dun mentioned once that it's best to raise cattle in the environment they're expected to perform in. Could one raise some big-barreled easy keeping cows just because of how they're raised?

What we need to select for is genetic, not really related to how they were raised. Even those heifers raised tough that don't have the neccesary conformation will fall apart as soon as they are starting to work for a living.

if so, should we be raising replacements differently?

By raising them under similar conditions than what they are expected to work in later in life give you an early opportunity to identify and cull those that won't work in your environment. Its about adding selection pressure at the time when the rumen is developed enough so it should be able to withstand life's hardships. There is no point in starving a calf to adulthood. Personally I "test" mine from about 9-13 months and bulls a little later.

also, can we force mature cows to conform to an environment by different management, and if so, how long would it take and would there be a maximum age where cows can be "modified"?

I doubt that, those that can adapt will and the others will show themselves very soon.

So from what Harley and Jeanne are saying, a big-barreled cow may not eat less than a "gutless wonder", but the big-barreled cow can survive on much lower quality feed than the gutless wonder can,

Yes, not only survive, but also perform.

and on high quality feed, the big barreled cow will gain faster and do better than the gutless wonder because she has an easier time getting the nutrition she needs?

Here comes the catch... Not neccesarily, as there is no selection pressure under optimum conditions.

When on feed the easier doing cow will just get fat, the gutless wonder will tend to regain muscle first and then add fat. Bulls in growth tests do the same, the real world bulls perform adequately on test, but seldom performs in the top 10%. The gutless wonders and later maturing bulls continue to grow and add lean meat for longer and since meat is heavier than fat their ADG and ADA will tend to be better on the longer tests, but their FCR are often not too great.

like how lightweight/bottle calves need grain because their rumen isn't big enough to get all the protein they need from hay, whereas larger calves can get what they need from hay and won't be potbellied? is potbellied even a terrible thing then, or can it be useful in moderation?

The rumen generally is only developed anough to meet the animals needs from about 8 months onwards (untill then the calf would still suckle its dam under natural conditions), so the potbelly wouldn't serve any purpose earlier in life, its just and indication that the rumen was filled with feed it couldn't digest at that time.

I'm just thinking 'on paper' tonight. Very interesting idea, nova.

I won't be taking any nutrition classes until next fall at the earliest, so all I can do right now is ask questions. :lol2:

Classes are good, but there are some things nutritionists don't (more than likely won't) understand.

In the real world its a case identifying those that can work for you under your conditions more than trying to provide optimum conditions for the performance cattle if you want to stay profitable for long.

 

[novatech]

My conclusion on this is that by the selection of high capacity cattle one would benefit economicly because he would have lower fertilizer input on pasture and reduce feed and/or supplement costs. With escalating costs and deminishing returns in our industry this may be a very important trait, along with cow size and efficiency.
Seems as though I have been doing things right just didn't know why.
This discussion has been primatly regarding cows in the pasture. So lets go a sep further. Eventually we (the cattle industry) end up raising terminal calves. Unless they are to be grass fed, would one want to choose a bull that had less capacity thus reducing waste (higher dressing percentage)?

 

[novatech]

My conclusion on this is that by the selection of high capacity cattle one would benefit economically because we would have lower fertilizer input on pasture and reduce feed and/or supplement costs. Our weather paterns are changing and some of us are haveing to look at useing lower input more drought hardy grasses with lower TDN. With escalating costs and diminishing returns in our industry this high capacity, may be a very important trait, along with cow size and efficiency.
Seems as though I have been doing things right just didn't know why.
This discussion has been primarily regarding cows in the pasture. So lets go a step further. Eventually we (the cattle industry) end up raising terminal calves. Unless they are to be grass fed, would one want to choose a bull that had less capacity thus reducing waste (higher dressing percentage)? Or would we still want the high capacity thus be able to feed out with lower quality feed?

 

[dun]

There is one little turd in the punchbowl of high capacity cows. They can end up having problems from becoming too fat. One of ours last winter for some reason got fat as tick and ended up prolapsing. The vet could;t figure any other reason other then the fat since she has very good muscle tone. She only 7 and went from a BCS of around 6 in October to a 9 (at least) by February.

 

[novatech]

There is one little turd in the punchbowl of high capacity cows. They can end up having problems from becoming too fat. One of ours last winter for some reason got fat as tick and ended up prolapsing. The vet could;t figure any other reason other then the fat since she has very good muscle tone. She only 7 and went from a BCS of around 6 in October to a 9 (at least) by February.

This is the reason the question came to mind in the first place. The Good Year Blimp is the same way. I was not to worried about prolapse (until now, thank you for that), but she is getting joint problems from caring all that extra weight and being heavy with a calf. Maybe a little fine boned for it as well. I may have to but here up and put her on a diet of P poor hay. Should have done it a month ago.

 

[dun]

There is one little turd in the punchbowl of high capacity cows. They can end up having problems from becoming too fat. One of ours last winter for some reason got fat as tick and ended up prolapsing. The vet could;t figure any other reason other then the fat since she has very good muscle tone. She only 7 and went from a BCS of around 6 in October to a 9 (at least) by February.

This is the reason the question came to mind in the first place. The Good Year Blimp is the same way. I was not to worried about prolapse (until now, thank you for that), but she is getting joint problems from caring all that extra weight and being heavy with a calf. Maybe a little fine boned for it as well. I may have to but here up and put her on a diet of P poor hay. Should have done it a month ago.

The fat causing prolapse is one a surmise kind of feal. We have one that is twice as fat as her and she didn;t prolapse. BTW, a diet doesn;t seem to help. Tried that with "poppen fresh" and she still prolapsed

 

[KNERSIE]

I may have to but here up and put her on a diet of P poor hay. Should have done it a month ago.

A more practical way to do this is to let the calf suckle for longer only weaning him 2 months before the cow is due again. You can wean at any time if the cow's condition drops below your cut off point. You not only win because the cow don't get overfit, but also in the added pounds of calf weaned.