Calving Ease Bulls

[3waycross]

In line with another bull breeders thread we have going at the moment here's another question for ya'll.

How much responsibility should we as seedstock producers take for calving ease and birthweights in a buyers herd. I had an experience where i sold a bull 4 years ago thru a pretty big bull sale and the buyer looked at his CE and BW EPD's and used him on some heifers. 2 years later i saw 5 of his sons go thru the same sale so i know he made him some nice calves cuz i saw them and their numbers were all decent for CE but not spectacular.
So last year i had a chance to talk to this fellow and asked how the bull was doing for him. He says he is a little miffed over his CE numbers cuz they didn't hold true.
I asked him how hed fed those heifers and he allowed that he mighta fedd em pretty good(read as REAL GOOD) which sure could impact the BW's. I also asked him how the CE was on the heifers and he allowed as how it coulda been a little(read as A LOT) better. I know he pulled some calves but he didn't lose any that i know of., and he made a ton of money on those bulls he sold. BTW an example of how BW's work. He had a BW of 72lbs. He produced a son wo weighed 97 lbs out of a heifer who's birthweight was 99lbs and was fed real good. Also worth noting he has up till now sold 8 breeding bulls out of my little fella for an avg of $2500. Not bad for a $3200 investment.

My question is how responsible should I feel for his calving woes.

 

[TexasBred]

Not a dam bit !!!!!! You only sold him the bull. That' half the equation. You can't control what he breeds the bull to.

 

[ANAZAZI]

The bull is even less than half the equation. It is half the genetics of the calf; whereas the genetics of the heifer/cow that calves has much to do with how difficult or easy she calves. And then how the heifers are raised and fed...

 

[WalnutCrest]

And, if any of the calves were embryos ... the recipient will impact BWs ... etc ...

 

[cow pollinater]

Not a bit.
You have no responsibility for how he manages his heifers. You also presented him with EPD's, which an informed cattleman should understand to be a "best guess" and not progeny proven. Plus, when you deal with Gelbvieh a lot of what's out there are balancers so there was likely some heterosis involved in calf size and that is for him to worry about and not you.

 

[Dega Moo]

In line with another bull breeders thread we have going at the moment here's another question for ya'll.

How much responsibility should we as seedstock producers take for calving ease and birthweights in a buyers herd. I had an experience where i sold a bull 4 years ago thru a pretty big bull sale and the buyer looked at his CE and BW EPD's and used him on some heifers. 2 years later i saw 5 of his sons go thru the same sale so i know he made him some nice calves cuz i saw them and their numbers were all decent for CE but not spectacular.
So last year i had a chance to talk to this fellow and asked how the bull was doing for him. He says he is a little miffed over his CE numbers cuz they didn't hold true.
I asked him how hed fed those heifers and he allowed that he mighta fedd em pretty good(read as REAL GOOD) which sure could impact the BW's. I also asked him how the CE was on the heifers and he allowed as how it coulda been a little(read as A LOT) better. I know he pulled some calves but he didn't lose any that i know of., and he made a ton of money on those bulls he sold. BTW an example of how BW's work. He had a BW of 72lbs. He produced a son wo weighed 97 lbs out of a heifer who's birthweight was 99lbs and was fed real good. Also worth noting he has up till now sold 8 breeding bulls out of my little fella for an avg of $2500. Not bad for a $3200 investment.

My question is how responsible should I feel for his calving woes.

Sounds like he has no compunction selling those sons and I imagine the acc on the epd's showed there was some risk involved. I'd say you have no responsibility over any 'calving woes' of his. In fact it sounds like he's done pretty well off the bull and maybe you should be telling him how you feel responsible for his good fortune.

 

[denvermartinfarms]

I have a guy here that I buy angus bulls from, he garuntees them to be good for 1 year, and if it's supposed to be a calving ease bull and it gives big calves he will buy it back for what you paid for it, to me that's more than fair.

 

[greybeard]

I know he pulled some calves but he didn't lose any that i know of., and he made a ton of money on those bulls he sold. BTW an example of how BW's work. He had a BW of 72lbs. He produced a son wo weighed 97 lbs out of a heifer who's birthweight was 99lbs and was fed real good. Also worth noting he has up till now sold 8 breeding bulls out of my little fella for an avg of $2500. Not bad for a $3200 investment. $20,000

My question is how responsible should I feel for his calving woes.

You worded it correctly and accurately.
HIS calving woes. (tho I wouldn't call $20K (minus his expenses) very woeful)
They were his cows/heifers. When he paid you and the gate shut on his trailer with the bull on board,it became HIS bull.
End of story.

 

[3waycross]

Thanks for your replies. One of the reasons i ask is i have another bull out of that calf mother in the same sale this year and he is a beauty. Probably my best calf. His calvinf ease is better and most like a little more reliable.

I will try to post some pictures when we work the bulls for the sale in Feb.

 

[fitz]

I would not have said anything if I were the guy. A breeder such as yourself puts all the information they have in front of the bidders. That usually includes how the bulls where developed feed wise.
No one forces me to bid on a bull. I take all information available and make my decisions. Like GB said, once the trailer door shuts he's mine. Good luck on the sale.

 

[u4411clb]

You did all you can. EPD's are only an estimate on a young bull. No one can expect a virgin bull to have a high accuraccy. It is just a best guest for what info is available. And like others said the entire issue could have been with the user's cows or no nfactoring in heterosis. If I give the person all the info I have open and honestly my concious is clean for whatever happens after that.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

And, if any of the calves were embryos ... the recipient will impact BWs ... etc ...

So true!!! Perfect example, we put in three embryos (flush mates), two stuck. One for the fall and one for the spring. The fall calf was born in September, and was 90 pounds (recip is a big cow that has had 4 calves). The Spring calf was born this week, and 70 pounds (another big recip that has had 7 calves). EXACTLY! So, a 30 pound difference just due to season and recip. People give way too much blame on the bull when things go bad... but the cow gets all the credit when weights are acceptable! Go figure...