Calf vigor.

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HatCreekCattleco

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How much do you attribute calf vigor to the bull? I'm talking about hit the ground in bad conditions get up and nurse, be out with the herd by the end of the day. Seems to me that trait contributes more to a successful calf crop than almost any other factor. I believe we should have epds for this (if they do I don't know what it's called and it should be more important than bw in my opinion).
 
Give it time and they probably will have EPD's for it. Now whether or not the EPD will be very credible is a whole nother subject.
I do believe the bull does contribute to that as I had a particular Charolais bull years ago that would sire seems like a percentage of calves that were big slow dead headed calves.
The flip side of that is I once had sone heifers AI bred to N BAR Prime Time, those calves were as forward and fast at an hour old as some other calves have been at a week old.
I will say though that if any calve are calved out in real cold wet conditions, it can zap the vigor right out them before they can get up and going.
We have calved quite a few during winter, and most do ok, but occasionally the conditions will be real bad like mud and cold rain or snow on top of it that just chills the calves very fast.
 
Oh My......My beef production class was soooo long ago. If I recall correctly, the cow probably has more impact on calf vigor than what the bull does. However, the one factor (maybe 2 factors, but related if not the same) that I can remember that the bull is a major contributor to and has an impact on calf vigor is calving ease and birth weight/size (again, colsely associated if not the same factor). For many years it was desireable to keep increasing birth weight, and then there was a dramatic increase in dystocia. I do recall an instance where a producer told me he got a bull that was to throw absolutely huge calves. He thought this was great. However, he was concerned about breeding him to his first calf heifers. To be on the safe side, he only bred the bull to his 5 largest cows (each over 1,500 lbs, IDK where he got cows that big). The end result: all 5 cows had dystocia complications. He lost 4 of the cows and either 4 or all 5 of the calves. ......He got rid of the bull. My thought would be to take all the epd scores and look at them in combination. You may put more value on one particular score as a personal preference, but don't totally disregard the other values.

Condition of the cow is going to play a big, non-genetic based role in birth vigor.
 
Oh My......My beef production class was soooo long ago. If I recall correctly, the cow probably has more impact on calf vigor than what the bull does. However, the one factor (maybe 2 factors, but related if not the same) that I can remember that the bull is a major contributor to and has an impact on calf vigor is calving ease and birth weight/size (again, colsely associated if not the same factor). For many years it was desireable to keep increasing birth weight, and then there was a dramatic increase in dystocia. I do recall an instance where a producer told me he got a bull that was to throw absolutely huge calves. He thought this was great. However, he was concerned about breeding him to his first calf heifers. To be on the safe side, he only bred the bull to his 5 largest cows (each over 1,500 lbs, IDK where he got cows that big). The end result: all 5 cows had dystocia complications. He lost 4 of the cows and either 4 or all 5 of the calves. ......He got rid of the bull. My thought would be to take all the epd scores and look at them in combination. You may put more value on one particular score as a personal preference, but don't totally disregard the other values.

Condition of the cow is going to play a big, non-genetic based role in birth vigor.
I agree a big calf will likely be slow
 
Mostly f1 brafords. Some super baldy. Every thing is at least a quarter ear. The bull whose calves I'm so proud of is a hereford from Shockley in Oklahoma
Shockley Herefords in Oklahoma is pretty close to where my wife is from.
I believe that her grandfather and uncles may have bought bulls from them years ago.
 
Shockley Herefords in Oklahoma is pretty close to where my wife is from.
I believe that her grandfather and uncles may have bought bulls from them years ago.
Monte Shockley is a good guy. They produce some good bulls for sure. Where is your wife from? I'm not too terrible far from Poteau myself.
 
It makes sense to me that big calves would spend more time being birthed, so possibly oxygen deprived. But small isn't good either. Weather is terrible on small calves.

As for vigor due to genetics, I've often wondered if docility genes are related to a lack of vigor. Docility is supposed to be one of the most heritable traits and of course we all want cattle that are less dangerous... but can it go too far? I've read that people that get angry survive gun shot wounds better than people that are fearful. Do angry babies survive better?
 
I have a 5-year old Gardens Wave son that the calves are the most vigorous newborns I have ever seen. If you don't tag them in the first hour or so, have to wait for an opportunity to ambush them to catch. Have never lost one of them to sickness either. His daughters are butt ugly and skinny, but raise outstanding calves.
 
I have a 5-year old Gardens Wave son that the calves are the most vigorous newborns I have ever seen. If you don't tag them in the first hour or so, have to wait for an opportunity to ambush them to catch. Have never lost one of them to sickness either. His daughters are butt ugly and skinny, but raise outstanding calves.
Sounds like a money making line of cattle! The good kind!
 
I will add I've had calves out of the same cows out of 3 other bulls. 2 of those 3 had a lot of slow calves. I'm nearly convinced myself that the bull plays a huge role in vigor.
If either 'parent' animal has a 'faulty' epd value anywhere, the 'good' epd value of the other parent isn't going to adequately compensate for it. The 'faulty' epd value is almost always going to dominate. So, if you use a bull that has a faulty epd value on all your cows, unfortunately you will see it in most of your calves, even if the epd of all the cows is good. Conversely, the cow doesn't seem as important, but this is because she is the mother of only 1 calf, where the bull is the father of every single calf in the herd.
 
If either 'parent' animal has a 'faulty' epd value anywhere, the 'good' epd value of the other parent isn't going to adequately compensate for it. The 'faulty' epd value is almost always going to dominate. So, if you use a bull that has a faulty epd value on all your cows, unfortunately you will see it in most of your calves, even if the epd of all the cows is good. Conversely, the cow doesn't seem as important, but this is because she is the mother of only 1 calf, where the bull is the father of every single calf in the herd.
I agree EPD's don't necessarily balance each other out.
I'm not one to put much trust in EPD's period. There are too many factors at play and too many variables. I believe EPD's have done as much harm as good.
 
I agree EPD's don't necessarily balance each other out.
I'm not one to put much trust in EPD's period. There are too many factors at play and too many variables. I believe EPD's have done as much harm as good.
They have value, but you are absolutely correct that there are many factors that play a part. Producers get into trouble when they look at a single EPD value and consider it a 'silver bullet'. Trust them, but they aren't your savior either.
 

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