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Bulls?

fnfarms1

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Ok I'm sure this has been ask and I'll get a ton of opinions. I have a herd of 35 mixed commercial cows here in NE Oklahoma. I recently bought 14 new black/baldy bred heifers that are SimXangus and Herefordo angus off one ranch I know we'll for quality cattle. These are the start of where I want to go and building blocks of the herd I want to go. I am currently using a Charolais bull and a Balancer bull. I like the charloais heifers for replacements, but the black balancer sells best. Question I'm asking is opinions on my next bull, thinking on replacing the balancer in June after he's helped the charloais get caught up.
My thoughts have been to go black with SimXangus, black charolais, gelveih, or just angus. I like brangus for their heat insect resistance, but the extra leather hurts and temperaments tend to fail me. I know there's alot of talk on terminal cross etc, keep in mind I'm keeping my own heifers. Also keep in mind I hope to start AI'ING in few years for show heifers for my son, but not there yet
 

Lazy M

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With as many mixes as you have already in play, and if you're keeping replacements, I'd suggest going straight angus
 

Son of Butch

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3 way cross heifers angus, simmental and hereford... but you like charloais so now you have 4 way cross heifers?
I don't get it.
But your question is... What should I breed my charloais, angus, simmental, herford heifers?
Long range goal... show heifers for your son.
And you're thinking maybe Gelveih for a 5 way cross?
I would get away from the shotgun approach and seek to reduce your genetic gene pool rather than more diversity
my suggestion would be black angus on your heifers and down the road maybe a sim-angus bull.
 

fnfarms1

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My original herd is mixed due to what I could afford when I started. Then I bought these new heifers that are a 2way cross, simangus or herefordXangus. These 2 way cross are the future of my herd and what u plan to build from. They are what I'm asking which bull to use. They will have calved by the time a new bull is needed, calving feb of 2017.
 

Son of Butch

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O.K. f1 heifers... f1 sim-angus, and f1 Hereford - angus.
to keep replacements from f1s match the f1 base, common denominator of all is angus, so I'd go with it as 1st choice,
2nd choice sim-angus.
terminal cross use a 3rd pure breed on f1s...I like charolais but a black gelveih would work well too.

Guess I would suggest replacing the existing balancer bull with a black angus bull and keep your charloais bull.
 

RanchMan90

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I would go with angus til you streamline your herd, then simangus. Charolais now or later for a terminal sire.
 

Caustic Burno

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Lazy M":2mqye86y said:
With as many mixes as you have already in play, and if you're keeping replacements, I'd suggest going straight angus
Yep he is getting too many crayons out of the box maximum hybred vigor is achieved in the 3 way cross in the terminal calf. After that consistency starts getting squirrelly along with loss in pounds to mash the scales.
Lots of info on crossing for the optimum 3 way cross out of dang near every major ag university.
 

fnfarms1

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Son of Butch":o68ycgbi said:
O.K. f1 heifers... f1 sim-angus, and f1 Hereford - angus.
to keep replacements from f1s match the f1 base, common denominator of all is angus, so I'd go with it as 1st choice,
2nd choice sim-angus.
terminal cross use a 3rd pure breed on f1s...I like charolais but a black gelveih would work well too.

Guess I would suggest replacing the existing balancer bull with a black angus bull and keep your charloais bull.

Thank you. Several of you mentioned an Angus bull, that was the direction I was thinking but doubted myself. I am not exactly proud of my mongrel older cows but their paid for and mine. Now trying to get a better herd
 

Boot Jack Bulls

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Given the current market on bulls, with a bit of homework and some legwork, you should be able to find a good bull to add uniformity and gains to your calf crop.
 

fnfarms1

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Boot Jack Bulls":2kb6misi said:
Given the current market on bulls, with a bit of homework and some legwork, you should be able to find a good bull to add uniformity and gains to your calf crop.

Advice? Can't say I understand
 

dun

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With the Balancer and Sim/Angus you already have a lot of angus influence. If you are trapped in one of those black is beautiful markets that docks the crap out of any other color depending on how mixed up your other cows are I would split them into at least 2 breeding groups and make sure the bull I used was homo black. I would decide what breed I wanted for my primary influence. The mixed up cows I would use a straight bred bull, angus, Simmenthal or Gelbvieh, your choice. The balancer sired replacements I would use a sim/angus on and the sim/angus replacements I would use a balancer. That way you won;t increase the angus but will have a basic 3 way cross.
 

Stocker Steve

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dun":8a6bl0bd said:
I would split them into at least 2 breeding groups and make sure the bull I used was homo black. I would decide what breed I wanted for my primary influence. The mixed up cows I would use a straight bred bull, angus, Simmenthal or Gelbvieh, your choice. The balancer sired replacements I would use a sim/angus on and the sim/angus replacements I would use a balancer. That way you won;t increase the angus but will have a basic 3 way cross.

- 2X ...... Don't want too much angus blood. :hide:
- When you start AIing you can target a more consistent 3 breed rotation by using a number of different sires, but your uniformity will be ****.
- So, you need practice hard culling.
 

Son of Butch

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Stocker Steve":1swjhcn7 said:
dun":1swjhcn7 said:
I would split them into at least 2 breeding groups and make sure the bull I used was homo black. I would decide what breed I wanted for my primary influence. The mixed up cows I would use a straight bred bull, angus, Simmenthal or Gelbvieh, your choice. The balancer sired replacements I would use a sim/angus on and the sim/angus replacements I would use a balancer. That way you won;t increase the angus but will have a basic 3 way cross.
So are you advising he get rid of the charolais bull and keep his balancer bull?
f1 angus - sim/hereford x balancer = 50% angus 1/4 gelbvieh 1/4 either sim or hereford for 3 way replacements.
- 2X ...... Don't want too much angus blood.
How much angus blood is too much in a cow herd?
Would you choose 2 breed or 3 breed replacement heifers?
49 total females 2 bulls Charolais and Balancer (Angus x Gelbvieh)
35 mixed cows bred to Charolais and Balancer
14 bred f1 heifers sim-angus and hereford-angus
He plans to build his herd from these 14 heifers.
His question is: What bull to use in Feb. on the 14 heifers (after calving) for replacement heifers?
(A.I. would be great, but not an option for 2+ years)

He likes some of the charolais heifers from the mixed cows as replacement heifers.
Assuming mixed cows are 3/8 - 1/2 angus = the calves are 1/2 charolais 3/16 -1/4 angus and 5/16 - 1/4 unkown
He states the balancer calves sell best and as of now, no balancer blood heifers for replacements.

1/4 angus heifers bred to angus = 62.5% angus offspring
f1 angus bred angus = 75% angus 25% sim and other 1/2 of the offspring = 75% angus 25% hereford
f1 angus bred sim-angus = 50% angus and 50% sim with (1/2 of the offspring) 50% angus 25% sim 25% hereford
1/4 angus heifers bred sim-angus = 37.5% angus

75/25 females bred to Charolais = 3 way cross of 1/2 char 3/8 angus and 1/8 either sim or hereford
50/50 f1 females to char = 3 way cross of 1/2 char 1/4 angus ... 1/4 either sim or hereford

My thought is to try to keep replacement females as close to a 2 way 50/50 cross [sim-angus] as possible.
Because there are also a few hereford and char influenced heifers in the mix... my 1st choice is a black angus bull.
If we were talking only sim-angus f1 heifers, a sim-angus bull would be better, but I assume only 7 are f1 sim-angus.
 

Stocker Steve

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Been there and tried to stay close to a 50/50 cross using some AI and multiple natural service herd sires. Only good thing was the large amount of variation made calf sorting obvious. :nod:

I would strongly consider waiting a year and buying more F1s like the best bred heifers. This would be faster and make bull breed selection easier.
 

Son of Butch

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I'm a little surprised... no Hereford enthusiasts suggestions for starting with a Hereford bull followed by black angus for a hereford, black angus rotation of bulls to make black baldie females. And just use the continental breeds for terminal sires to make market calves.
 

Ky hills

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Son of Butch":2r8xr73p said:
I'm a little surprised... no Hereford enthusiasts suggestions for starting with a Hereford bull followed by black angus for a hereford, black angus rotation of bulls to make black baldie females. And just use the continental breeds for terminal sires to make market calves.

I am a little surprised too, so I will give my :2cents: and say something similar. I would maybe go with an Angus bull at first. That way the calves would be at least half or 3/4 percentage Angus, and would put another generation of black hided breeding behind the calves, then go with a Hereford bull for the next generation.
 

fnfarms1

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Thanks Son of Butch. U explained it better than I did. Angus it is.

Boot Jack Bulls mentioned leg work etc for good bulls. What did he mean? Just going and looking to find a good one?
 

Jake

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fnfarms1":2zt9r74v said:
Thanks Son of Butch. U explained it better than I did. Angus it is.

Boot Jack Bulls mentioned leg work etc for good bulls. What did he mean? Just going and looking to find a good one?

Yes, a high quality bull is really more important than the breed. There is less difference between truly good individuals of different breeds than there is between the top and bottom in each breed.
 

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