Bulls ARE cheaper than AI

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sainty01

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In another thread someone mentioned AI as being cheaper than owning a bull. I think that is completely untrue. Here's why. For this example I'm pretending you have 20 cows and plan to use the bull for 5 years.

Yearling Bull vs. AI

Yearling Bull Example:
Initial Cost: $2500
Feed Cost: $1/day (or less)
Cost if you used the bull for five years: $4325
At the end of this time the bull would have a salvage value of about $1200.
Total Cost: $3125

AI:
Initial Cost: $30/straw (which is about average)
Synchronizing and getting them bred: $15/hd (Obviously depends on what you do...but I think $15 is probably about average.)
Cost per cow to AI: $45
x 20 cows
Cost per year: $900
x 5 years
Cost for 5 years: $4500
(and if you want certificates for those calves... add another $30 a head or a total of $3000)

So in review using a bull for five years on 20 cows would cost you: $3125. or AI 20 cows for five years and getting certificates would cost you $7500. So if you buy a good bull instead of AIing to the bull of the month you would save $4375.

Just something to think about.
 
I do both ways A.I and bulls. Pros and cons to both, A.I tanks don't die, need feed and never run to the niebours farm through the fence. $ 45 to get them serviced take the course and do it youself. Why syncronize??? check heat am/pm breed accordingly for 21 days and let the bulls do the clean up. Cows are not pin cushions.

TK
 
Both have advantages and disadvantages. Depends on your operation and what you're shootin for. Don't forget about extra labor needed with AI.
 
having your own Bull is Good but A.I also has it strong ponits.

With A.I you can bring Differnt Gentics in your herd with out having to go out and buying the bull.

but Even with A.I you still need a Clean up bull. Because not ever animal will stick. we like to A.I are yearling heifers to proven easy calving bulls.

then just turn the Clean up bull in :cboy:
 
not knocking either way, but with AI you can breed to one of the best bulls in the country (if you do your homework). With the $2500 herd/cleanup bull, you would have to get really lucky to get progeny that would compare to the stud bull's. The person has decide where the economic breakpoint is for their operation and make decisions based on (how much they value females, retained ownership, etc.) I think the problem for most folks is they are not setup to do AI effectively. It helps to have the time to heat detect twice a day and pen the cattle needing to be bred. Lastly, having a technician who is experienced and can catch 85% or better will make for less work and less bills.

I also think that for the commercial AI scenario, you don't have to use $30 straws. There are plenty of high accuracy bulls available for $18-$20/straw.
 
TK Ranch":2ok727q0 said:
I do both ways A.I and bulls. Pros and cons to both, A.I tanks don't die, need feed and never run to the niebours farm through the fence. $ 45 to get them serviced take the course and do it youself. Why syncronize??? check heat am/pm breed accordingly for 21 days and let the bulls do the clean up. Cows are not pin cushions.

TK

No they just start leaking and not holding the LN for as long as they should.


Scotty
 
also with AI'ing the calevs mostlikly will eb worth mroe becasue they came fom top sires aand that profits you
 
It depends on the bull you use on whether or not owning the bull is cheaper than using AI. Some of the semen I can buy I wouldn't be able to afford the bull!
 
In another thread someone mentioned AI as being cheaper than owning a bull. I think that is completely untrue. Here's why. For this example I'm pretending you have 20 cows and plan to use the bull for 5 years.

Yearling Bull vs. AI

Yearling Bull Example:
Initial Cost: $2500
Feed Cost: $1/day (or less)
Cost if you used the bull for five years: $4325
At the end of this time the bull would have a salvage value of about $1200.
Total Cost: $3125

AI:
Initial Cost: $30/straw (which is about average)
Synchronizing and getting them bred: $15/hd (Obviously depends on what you do...but I think $15 is probably about average.)
Cost per cow to AI: $45
x 20 cows
Cost per year: $900
x 5 years
Cost for 5 years: $4500
(and if you want certificates for those calves... add another $30 a head or a total of $3000)

So in review using a bull for five years on 20 cows would cost you: $3125. or AI 20 cows for five years and getting certificates would cost you $7500. So if you buy a good bull instead of AIing to the bull of the month you would save $4375.

1. $30 A straw is well above average $20 is average
2. $15 to synchrinize is high 8-10 has been my experience.
3. $1200 salvage value seems a bit high but maybe?
4. Take into account that if you synch your cows and get 50% conception half of your cows will be born in the first week of calving season giving them x amount of extra days to grow =more days, more weight, more money.
5. Genetic advantage of using a $50,000 high accuracy for calving ease= less pulled calves equaling quicker breed backs. Higher growth=more pounds more money.
6. Marketing Advantage if you have registered cattle that are all bull bred you are at a disadvantage when it comes time to market your bulls. AI sired bulls and heifers fetch a better price.
7. MAtching cows to sires that improve their weak traits.

There is good reason for AI in the industry. In a situation with one breeding group I would say a bull could be cheaper. Registered, 20 cows is a rough road. 40-60 cows AI all and cleanup with bull is definetly the way to go.
 
We run a bull. I don't know how to AI, don't have time to heat detect, and really don't have the desire to do it. I also cannot use a bull for 5 years. I keep replacement heifers and he would be breeding his daughters.
 
sainty01 and Bez! response in Bold":1acxtzgw said:
In another thread someone mentioned AI as being cheaper than owning a bull. I think that is completely untrue. Here's why. For this example I'm pretending you have 20 cows and plan to use the bull for 5 years.

Yearling Bull vs. AI

OK - it may work for you - but here goes my situation:

Yearling Bull Example:
Initial Cost: $2500 - same - give or take unless I use my home grown and his quality is pretty fair therefore zero
Feed Cost: $1/day (or less) -Must be warm where you live - 1.50 /day - absolute minimum
Cost if you used the bull for five years: $4325 - $5237
At the end of this time the bull would have a salvage value of about $1200. - 300 bucks
Total Cost: $3125 - $4937

Plus - 5 years on 20 cattle. Better be a good bull, because I have certainly screwed up the genetic outcross, and started some heavy line breeding by the time I am done.

Replacements? How many times you going to line breed?

Unless this operation is very well run and the operator is an excellent breeder - one bull in this operation is a travesty - IMO


AI:
Initial Cost: $30/straw (which is about average) - 15-20
Synchronizing and getting them bred: $15/hd (Obviously depends on what you do...but I think $15 is probably about average.) 3-5 bucks using estrumate - free if you can see they are standing
Cost per cow to AI: $45 - $20 - less if you do it yourself
x 20 cows
Cost per year: $900
x 5 years
Cost for 5 years: $4500
(and if you want certificates for those calves... add another $30 a head or a total of $3000) Anyone wanting certificates for meat animals is not in it to make money - if it cannot be sold as seed stock and certificate is required it is a hobby - seed stock folks will use a combination of bull and AI - seed stock is an entirely different game - perhaps not applicable here.

So in review using a bull for five years on 20 cows would cost you: $3125. or AI 20 cows for five years and getting certificates would cost you $7500. So if you buy a good bull instead of AIing to the bull of the month you would save $4375.

Just something to think about.

I have thought about it - disagree - if only due to lack of genetic diversity. Glad you found what you like and hope it works for you.

Bez!
 
Beef11":2woes4q4 said:
DID BEEF and BEZ agree on something?

Beef11 -

You may come across as a pompous and overly suspicious person who has a deep and unabiding fear of honest folks who get paid by commission.

You may also appear to have a deep disrespect for these people, calling them scum suckers and such - even if you have never met them - relying on second and third person stories from others as the oracle.

You may also come across as a person who has lived life in a small town and never been to the big city.

You may also come across as a person who because of their narrow outlook on life and their suspicion of folks outside their own small community, will never be able to survive in the fast paced world of ag business.

You may also come across as a person who fears public interaction with other folks because you truly believe everyone is out to take your money.

You may come across as a person who will never let a guest sit alone in the kitchen because that guest will probably steal some of the silverware. (Do they have to pay for the coffee or are you willing to part with that for free?)

Whether all of the above are true is difficult to say - for that reason I have prefaced all of my comments with "You may or You may also" but that is how you appear to me on the average day.

I could go on - but why bother. :lol:

In the end - if you do manage to say something and I happen to agree - I would always hope that I would be big enough to admit it.

Yes - we do agree on this issue.

Bez!
 
Up her in the Northwest, you are going to have a hard time buying a good bull for $2500 this spring. Sales are averaging $3000+.
 
I don't think there is one right answer for ever herd out there. I think we can both draw hypotheticals to fit either viewpoint.
Take this one for example.....
A commercial cattleman has 60 cows,
He buys 2 $2000 bulls naturally...
they each last 5 years and bring $1100 salvage value,
the bulls eat grass which he has plenty of except in winter where they each consume 4 rolls bales (worth $22 each) and 4lbs of grain a day for 80 days to keep them in peak shape during the 60 day breeding season (grain costs ~$135 a ton or ~$50 a year per bull). Bull pen repairs run another $100 a year, vaccinations worth $15/bull, $10 in Ivomec, and throw in a $25 breeding soundness exam every year just for good measure. Total cost to keep 2 bulls = 2((2000-1100))/5+(4x22)+50+100/2+15+10+25)) or $836 per year

IF he switches to synchronized AI with AI follow up....
Assume semen is $15 per straw, costs of synching cows ~$10 per cow, 70% success rate 1st breeding, 50% second breeding, 40% third breeding and we use 2 straws per breeding. Semen tank cost $600 and last ~6 years, ai equipment and AI supplys costs at ~$40 a year.
AI cost =((60x(15x2))+((60x.3)x(15x2))+(((60x.3)x.5)x(15X2))+(600/6)+(60x10)+40 or $3540 per year

Unless those AI stud sired commercial calves are a LOT better than the commercial calves sired by those good registered bulls he can buy as 2 year olds the commercial cow dude is losing $2704 and he is working his tail off watching and working cows.
 
We do AI a portion of our herd every year and maintain cleanup bulls. I fail to see how anyone could be 100% AI and not have cleanup bulls. After the fall preg checks if they are open they grow wheels. With that in mind, if a producer is 100% AI, and has 80% of his cows sticking, he would lose 20% of his herd each year. Or spending (wasting) money keeping open cows through the winter.
 
I hear you Simmangus. Would need a clean up bull. In fact, it would be preferable to have one that was good enough to keep replacements out of (assuming you kept your own), and while I know price doesn't dictate quality, probably looking at at $2500 for him if a fellow finds a steal someplace.

I disagree though, with the other thought that natural service beats AIing. Think of how far back all breeds would be if not for AIing. And a lot of guys like to have calves out of the big bulls, just like the big breeders do.

We are looking at beginning to AI heifers, once we get the head count up just a bit more. Right now, though, we feel AIing cows with calves will be too time and feed consuming.

What are the pros and cons of the following:
What about the guy spending $6-7000+ on the son of some big bull, AIing to him and using him for clean up. I mean he could breed 40+ heifers for two years, maybe several more dependng on the AI job, and you could have around 80 calves out of him at 2 years old. Which may be close to average for a bull's life in natural service, depending on stocking rates, etc. (I would like all of our bulls to make 5 or 6, but unfortunately some don't.)

Additionally, you could add one more year using him AI again on the first heifers he bred. (I assume after 2 years, he physically may be too big to breed heifer calves.) Not to mention, if something happens, you could have semen out of him as a bit of an insurance policy. Then he gets put in the pasture rotation on the third or fourth year. If a fellow is running heifers and second calf heifers seperate from the main herd, the daughters out of him wouldn't be there for 4 years, so they would only be around him the last year to two years of his service. As far as breeding him back to a daughter, it would still be a bull by committee situation. (If AIing these cows the odds are even less.)

That could increase the calves out of him by 50% or more, and theoritically they would be bred to a better bull. Also all females bred to the same bull might help a little in figuring their performance based on their respective calves. After the first two years, a producer would begin to have some good data to select top cows to AI to the big boys if he wanted.

I think it would take around 200-250 cows to get that to work.
 
The Cow-Calf Manager:
Managing Natural Service and Artificial Insemination

Livestock Update, April 1998

John B. Hall, Animal and Poultry Sciences, Virginia Tech



By breeding time, calving season is over, the grass is green and the weather is warmer. A great time to be in the cattle business. Often our attention is pulled towards spring planting, equipment repairs or the kids' ball games rather than the cattle operation. It's tempting to open the gate, let the bull in and say "go to it boy". But the breeding season, especially the early part, deserves our attention whether we're using AI or natural service. We need to manage the breeding season just like any other critical portion of the beef operation. The success or failure of this management will be realized nine months from now.

Last month we emphasized pre-breeding nutrition and examinations, now lets look at some other management considerations for the breeding season.

Natural Service

Bull to cow ratios
Research indicates that we can run more cows per bull. For years, we used the blanket recommendation of 25 to 30 cows per bull and limit yearling bulls to 20 cows per bull. But research indicates that we could go as high as 60 cows per mature bull. My current recommendation for bulls age 2 and up is one bull for every 40 cows. Research from Georgia demonstrated no difference in conception rates for bulls bred to 25 cows or 40 cows in a 90-day breeding season (Figure 1). There also was no difference between 2 year-old and 3 year-old bulls in their ability to breed 40 cows.

It is essential that bulls pass a complete breeding soundness exam before being turned out. Yearling bulls should be limited to no more than 30 cows.

Although most Virginia beef herds need only one or two bulls, some large herds use several sires in the same pasture with large numbers (100+) cows. Many producers believe this gives them insurance against sub-fertile bulls. However, the dominant bull will always breed most of the cows and defend his "right" to do so. If the dominant bull is sterile, this can mean poor conception and pregnancy rates for the herd. If multi-sire breeding groups are going to be used, bulls should be age and size matched. If young bulls are placed with older bulls the young bulls will only sire about 25 % of the calves. In addition, he usually becomes a punching bag for the older bull. Bulls from multi-sire groups usually have more injuries including broken penises and tend to leave the herd sooner.

Monitor Bull and Cow Performance
Bull performance should be monitored for the first 5 days of the breeding season. Producers need to watch bulls and cows closely for the following:

Are bulls finding and mounting cows in heat?
Do bulls actually service cows upon mounting?
Once a bull has serviced a cow does he move on to the next cow in heat?
How many cows have been in heat in the first 5 days of the breeding season?
Bulls should be able to find, mount and service cows in heat efficiently. Remember when cows first come into heat they sometimes stand for other cows but not for the bull. Cows should stand for the bull by the middle of heat. Once a bull has serviced a cow once or twice he should move on and attempt to service other cows that are in heat.

Approximately one fourth (1/4) of the herd should be in heat during a 5-day period. This rate usually varies from 15 to 35 % in normal herds with a large percentage of cycling cows. If only 5 to 10 % of cows are in heat, there may be a low percentage of cows that are cycling and producers may need to consider some alternative management practices. These alternative management practices may include: synchronization with Syncro-mate B or MGA, calf removal, or increased nutrition. These practices may be used alone or in combination.

Cows should also be observed for 5 days starting about 19 days after the bulls were turned out. If a large percentage of cows that were in heat and bred are in heat again, there may be a problem with the bull.

Bull Nutrition
I have covered different aspects of cow nutrition over the last few months. Nutrition of the bull is no less important. Bulls need to be in body condition score 5 at the start of the breeding season. They should be no thinner than BCS 4 by the end of the breeding season. Bulls may need additional energy supplementation during the breeding season to maintain body condition and fertility. It is especially important for yearling bulls to receive extra energy during the breeding season. Finding and breeding large numbers of cows requires a lot of energy.

Estrous Synchronization and Natural Mating
Estrous synchronization can be used effectively with natural mating as long as the synchronized estrus occurs 13 to 14 days before the bulls are turned in. In Kentucky, we fed MGA (0.5 mg/head/day) to heifers for 14 days then turned the bull in 13 days after the last feeding of MGA. In 601 heifers from 12 herds, we had a 69% conception rate to the first heat after we turned in the bull. These systems work well for heifers. Information on this system is available from your extension office.


Artificial Insemination
Producers interested in artificial insemination may want to get a copy of two new handouts called "Managing Artificial Insemination in Beef Herd" and "Estrous Synchronization Systems for Artificial Insemination and Natural Service". Contact your local extension office for a copy.

In order to start or improve a beef AI program, producers should do the following:

Analyze your interest and attitude towards using AI in your herd
Check the nutritional program and status of your herd
Evaluate your facilities
Decide on an AI system
Review estrus detection and learn ways to reduce detection time
Check your cattle handling practices
Take an AI course or refresher workshop

Attitude and Commitment
Without a doubt, a positive attitude and extreme commitment are the most important management tools needed for successful AI. There is no reason to even consider AI if you are only going to make a half-hearted attempt. Producers with a negative attitude to AI are destine to fail.
In addition to time and labor, some new costs (see Table 1) are associated with AI. Often reducing the number of bulls used for natural service offsets these costs. Added value of the calves usually makes AI a profitable addition to a beef breeding program.

Table 1. Cost comparison of breeding systems

Breeding System
Natural Service 21 day AI, no synchronization, clean-up bull 21 day AI w/ synchronization, clean-up bull 70 day AI, no clean-up bull
Breeding cost per pregnant female (100 cow herd) $ 32.00 $ 32.10 $ 38.50 $ 40.00
From Nebraska data

Good Estrus Detection (Checking Heat) Is the Key to Successful AI

Without good estrus detection it doesn't matter how good an inseminator is; cows just won't conceive. Cows ovulate approximately 24 to 30 hours after the beginning of estrus or 12 - 14 hours after the end of estrus. However, semen must be deposited in the female reproductive tract several hours before ovulation to insure high conception rates. Cows remain in estrus for 8 - 16 hours.

The average life span of an ovum (egg) in the female reproductive tract is about 8-12 hours. The life span of sperm in the reproductive tract is about 30 - 48 hours. Therefore, it's better to inseminate too early rather than too late. However, on time is the best. Breed 12 hours after you first see the cow in heat.

Follow the old a.m. - p.m. rule - If in heat in the morning before noon, breed the cow that p.m. In heat in the afternoon or evening, breed the next morning.

Cows should be checked at least twice a day at dawn and dusk. This will catch 80-90 % of the cows that show heat. Additional heat checks will increase the number of cows you find in heat, but usually the extra time is not justified in a beef operation. DO NOT check heat on cows at feeding time. When eating, cows are not interested in expressing estrus.

Tip - Using binoculars will make reading ear tags easier without disturbing cows.

Weather and environment can greatly impact expression of estrus in cows.


If the weather is hot, check heat before dawn and after dark. Evening heat check may have to be delayed until 10:00 to 11:00 at night. A hand held spotlight is real handy.
If it's raining, cows will often quit riding each other. Wait until rain has stopped or slowed down.
Cold usually does not influence estrus expression unless it is accompanied by severe winds and blowing snow. Windbreaks can help.
Poor footing due to mud or ice will decrease the cow's willingness to ride or stand. Moving cows to less slippery conditions will improve heat detection.

Estrous synchronization
Beef producers should use estrous synchronization. Without a doubt an AI program in a beef herd will be difficult and too time consuming if estrous synchronization is not used. Simply this reduces the intensive heat check period from 21 to 5-7 days. Many beef AI programs have worked without estrous synchronization; however, it is a very labor-intensive method to operate an AI program. Consult the publication "Estrous Synchronization for AI and Natural Service", your local veterinarian or extension professional for information on estrous synchronization.
Estrus detection aids
Producers should seriously consider using one of several heat detection aids available today. These assist the producer in identifying cows in heat more rapidly and can also indicate cows that expressed estrus between the normal heat check times. I also recommend breeding based on these aids. Occasionally it costs some semen but often cows conceive that would otherwise be missed.

Remember these are just aids - THEY DO NOT REPLACE VISUAL HEAT DETECTION.
 

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