Bull Price??

poorfarmer

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
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City & State/Province
Southern Indiana
I have a bull I am looking at and was looking for input on going prices in different areas. I know some of the members on here go to some of the bull sales and might have a better idea what they are bringing.
It is a Registered Angus (15 months old): Here are the EPD's I remember off the top of my head I misplaced the sheet he gave me.
EPD's:
CED: +5
WW: +66
YW: +122
$B: 164.5
Thanks for any input.
 
This a performance bull, and will require a high level of inputs to stay in shape.

He is not a calving ease bull

He should go to a farm, not a ranch, with plenty attention, to keep him in shape, and watch calving.
 
yeah I did a little research and average Angus CED is +6 so if I did get it I would breed him to my cow herd not heifers, and it would be a farm setting.
 
I agree he is not a heifer bull, he can go anywhere you want him with the info given, by todays numbers he's moderate, I wouldn't say high performance at all, you put him on a good set of cows he will get along fine. If he's on cows sleep all night, bull Im using for cleanup is -5 ced no worries here, with more info anything could change.
Now around here last week those type bulls averaged 3100, first of Jan they were 4200 at sales, sold mine 3000.
 
The business model drives the bull choices.

If it is a production per head model, on cows, he is a performance bull.

If the model is production per acre. he will likely be poor,

What is his AAA number, so we can see the rest of the numbers, and comment on the same.

A picture would be helpful also.
 
james coffelt":29x4dyqq said:
The business model drives the bull choices.

If it is a production per head model, on cows, he is a performance bull.

If the model is production per acre. he will likely be poor,

What is his AAA number, so we can see the rest of the numbers, and comment on the same.

A picture would be helpful also.

I will try to tack down that info.
 
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Poor Farmer

We have all registered Angus, and if interested, we use the following criteria:

Great phenotype
Near the top, if not the top, of a large peer group
Low milk EPD, as this drives year round maintenance on females.
High dollar $EN, another maintenance measure.
A BW EPD zero or below, so there are few calving issues, if any.
Not concerned with WW or YW, moderate is fine, and lower is fine.

Low maintenance converts to easy fleshing, easy finishing, which increases fertility, and permits entrance into premium markets. Furthermore, it permits a greater stocking rate, which effects profits more than any other factor.
 
james coffelt":3ipnywkz said:
Poor Farmer

We have all registered Angus, and if interested, we use the following criteria:

Great phenotype
Near the top, if not the top, of a large peer group
Low milk EPD, as this drives year round maintenance on females.
High dollar $EN, another maintenance measure.
A BW EPD zero or below, so there are few calving issues, if any.
Not concerned with WW or YW, moderate is fine, and lower is fine.

Low maintenance converts to easy fleshing, easy finishing, which increases fertility, and permits entrance into premium markets.

I like your formula.
 
Probably won't happen.....but I'd say about half of what one was worth last year at this time..... Just sayin ;-)
 
Bulls, seedstock females, grass finished beef, all natural steers.

We work hard to stay away from the commodity market
 
I'm gonna look at your formula for the way I look at it. After its said with purebred you may have that market that works for you, I think poorfarmer is probably a commercial guy, and thats who my market is.
Phenotype Im good with.
Milk is what grows these calves, I don't want extreme but 20 to 25 I'm good with, but low to no milk not for me.
$EN. Is not something I even look at, it will go to stocking rates.
BW zero or below. Never on a cow around here unless her BW is way high, if a mature cow can't handle some BW she has no place here, and if you stay in the negatives Thats what you get cows that can't handle it.
WW and YW plays a big part to the commercial guy that would buy your bulls, they sell lbs. If your feeding them out right on your place no worries.

Now stocking rates and $EN. UT says cows eat X lbs per day per hundred weight. Now using X lets say you can run 12, 1000lb cows or pick 10, 1200 lb cows( just assuming here your cows are smaller) I'm gonna run 1400lb cows which will give me 8.5 cows on the same amount of ground. Now if performance is the same and they wean calves at 50% of there body weight. You have 6000lbs of calf I have 5950lbs of calf, your 10 or 12 got me by 50lbs, but now lets vaccinate the calves. 8.5 will cost me $127.50 your 12 will be $180.00 saving me $52.50. Now cows mine $144 yours $156 Thats taking weight off for worming still saving me $12. I've saved $64.50 making it about break even on the 50lbs of calf I lost. And with all that Im saying stocking rate means nothing to me as long as she performs.

Now a question, you say easy finishing. How long and at what weight do they finish?
All this is just looking at it from the other side of where your at.
 
BW zero or below. Never on a cow around here unless her BW is way high, if a mature cow can't handle some BW she has no place here, and if you stay in the negatives Thats what you get cows that can't handle it.
If you want to practice and learn, only use a few that you are willing to cull to stack extreme low BW or super high CE for two or three generations. Pandora's box will open wide for you. And it is not just a future problem of calving ease alone.

I agree, moderate BW is needed in a cow herd. Cow and calf shape are more important that calf birth weight. Breed small square or round cows for square or round calves and you will need to own a backhoe. Let the cows and calves have some scale with adequate muscling and you will be birthing eels rather than basketballs. Put one relative back two or three generations with high BW and that is an eye opener when least expected, too. Moderation of all things is an easy ride. You cannot fool Mother Nature.

Now a question, you say easy finishing. How long and at what weight do they finish?
Often a term to use to describe cows that get fat and slick. I see obesity in a cow as either a negative impact on fertility, a sign of poor fertility, a way to fill an udder with fat or a sign that the cow is too small for her feed or that she is overfed. All are negatives for me: 6 red flags. She will replace herself with a fat daughter.

Some on other threads are searching for the perfect heifer bull. I don't know their resources or cattle but I do know that if they would drop the desired high performance sires from their list and breed the heifers to a decent BW, average or slightly less than average performance bull the calves might not be the top in the group but they will put less stress on the heifers to increase breed back. That is the most stressful time for any heifer. She will not face that challenge again. Help her breed back and stick around any both of you come out for the better.
 
BSE

I have responded in your text, thanks


bse":1farm093 said:
I'm gonna look at your formula for the way I look at it. After its said with purebred you may have that market that works for you, I think poorfarmer is probably a commercial guy, and thats who my market is.
Phenotype Im good with.
Milk is what grows these calves, I don't want extreme but 20 to 25 I'm good with, but low to no milk not for me.

A few thoughts, growth is 80% genetics, 20% milk. The higher milking cattle will have higher year round maintenance requirements, ,which in turn, reduces stocking rate. Stocking rate is the most important factor in profitability.


$EN. Is not something I even look at, it will go to stocking rates.


BW zero or below. Never on a cow around here unless her BW is way high, if a mature cow can't handle some BW she has no place here, and if you stay in the negatives Thats what you get cows that can't handle it.

Our heifer calves average 63#-70#, bull calves average 65#-72#. This seems to me to be the balance between a healthy vigorous calf, and no problems. Keep in mind the cows here are 1050# to 1200#. We calve on several farms, some have no facilities, we cannot lose calves or cows. Our calving issues average about 1%, that includes retaining the heifer crop each year

WW and YW plays a big part to the commercial guy that would buy your bulls, they sell lbs. If your feeding them out right on your place no worries.

We are on track for a hayless winter for the cows. We do sell pounds, which are about 20% higher with 120 more, moderate/efficient/lower milking cows, than a hundred high performance, larger, cows, on the same ground

Now stocking rates and $EN. UT says cows eat X lbs per day per hundred weight. Now using X lets say you can run 12, 1000lb cows or pick 10, 1200 lb cows( just assuming here your cows are smaller) I'm gonna run 1400lb cows which will give me 8.5 cows on the same amount of ground. Now if performance is the same and they wean calves at 50% of there body weight. You have 6000lbs of calf I have 5950lbs of calf, your 10 or 12 got me by 50lbs, but now lets vaccinate the calves. 8.5 will cost me $127.50 your 12 will be $180.00 saving me $52.50. Now cows mine $144 yours $156 Thats taking weight off for worming still saving me $12. I've saved $64.50 making it about break even on the 50lbs of calf I lost. And with all that Im saying stocking rate means nothing to me as long as she performs.

I do not agree with your numbers. Two 1200# cows will not produce the same, or be as efficient, there are genetic/maintenance differences, back to the milk subject, which drives year round maintenance requirements

Now a question, you say easy finishing. How long and at what weight do they finish?

The first requirement of a cow is survival, the lower maintenance, the easier. Second is fleshing ability, which is required for high fertility. Last is getting bred back. The easier the first two, the more calves. Easy fleshing, moderate cattle, are more fertile, have more calves, with less problems.
All this is just looking at it from the other side of where your at.

Nice conversation, thank you
 
Ebeneezer, see the bold text, in your text:


Ebenezer":38bb7c77 said:
BW zero or below. Never on a cow around here unless her BW is way high, if a mature cow can't handle some BW she has no place here, and if you stay in the negatives Thats what you get cows that can't handle it.
If you want to practice and learn, only use a few that you are willing to cull to stack extreme low BW or super high CE for two or three generations. Pandora's box will open wide for you. And it is not just a future problem of calving ease alone.

I tend to agree, extreme birth weight will produce some dinks, however, zero or there abouts is not extreme, IMHO

I agree, moderate BW is needed in a cow herd. Cow and calf shape are more important that calf birth weight. Breed small square or round cows for square or round calves and you will need to own a backhoe. Let the cows and calves have some scale with adequate muscling and you will be birthing eels rather than basketballs. Put one relative back two or three generations with high BW and that is an eye opener when least expected, too. Moderation of all things is an easy ride. You cannot fool Mother Nature.

Well said

Now a question, you say easy finishing. How long and at what weight do they finish?

An efficient, easy fleshing, lower maintenance animal, will finish quicker, on less feed, as a smaller animal. The answer, however, on a steer on feed, will be #1150-#1200 pounds, in a feedlot, quicker. Now then, grass finished is a different subject. Larger, higher maintenance animals, cannot finish on grass, without farming.

Often a term to use to describe cows that get fat and slick. I see obesity in a cow as either a negative impact on fertility, a sign of poor fertility, a way to fill an udder with fat or a sign that the cow is too small for her feed or that she is overfed. All are negatives for me: 6 red flags. She will replace herself with a fat daughter.

agree

Some on other threads are searching for the perfect heifer bull. I don't know their resources or cattle but I do know that if they would drop the desired high performance sires from their list and breed the heifers to a decent BW, average or slightly less than average performance bull the calves might not be the top in the group but they will put less stress on the heifers to increase breed back. That is the most stressful time for any heifer. She will not face that challenge again. Help her breed back and stick around any both of you come out for the better.



Thanks
 
poorfarmer":s32f8ngr said:
I have a bull I am looking at and was looking for input on going prices in different areas. I know some of the members on here go to some of the bull sales and might have a better idea what they are bringing.
It is a Registered Angus (15 months old): Here are the EPD's I remember off the top of my head I misplaced the sheet he gave me.
EPD's:
CED: +5
WW: +66
YW: +122
$B: 164.5
Thanks for any input.
$2900 - $4000
 
1st off I think ok poorfarmer may have been pulling our leg the way he answered the $B question.
Now J C, I can't do all that fancy moving.
You say 80% genetic 20% milk, so what is a good milk number in your opinion to achieve the 20%
The part about the numbers I think are right, I know any 2 animals are not gonna produce the exact same, I was saying all things being equal, give me the 1400lb cow less cows and calves through the chute less time for me, by the numbers you can stick the same amount of lbs of cow, assuming there all performing. So stocking rate means nothing unless you want to say I've got 100 cows instead of 80.
You said your finishing steers at 1200lb how long does that take on grass?
I have cows spread over a hundred mile radius, with no cover, but I'm not gonna give up growth on mature cows because I don't think they can handle moderate BW, I do have a calving season so I do know and check a lot during that time.
Just my opinions.
 
bse":25szpbbd said:
1st off I think ok poorfarmer may have been pulling our leg the way he answered the $B question.
Now J C, I can't do all that fancy moving.
You say 80% genetic 20% milk, so what is a good milk number in your opinion to achieve the 20%



I think that is the wrong question, how do you raise stocking rates?, and have more, slightly smaller calves, but, 20% more total pounds?


The part about the numbers I think are right, I know any 2 animals are not gonna produce the exact same, I was saying all things being equal, give me the 1400lb cow less cows and calves through the chute less time for me, by the numbers you can stick the same amount of lbs of cow, assuming there all performing. So stocking rate means nothing unless you want to say I've got 100 cows instead of 80.


Low input, adapted cattle, never go thru any chute. The are adapted, without worming, without shots, here.

You said your finishing steers at 1200lb how long does that take on grass?


Depends on the forage. With Legumes or farming turnips, etc, can be 20 months, (grass finishing) for steers. However, we sell the steers and use females, who calve and gain, and sell the lates/opens, etc., they finish easier on grass. Finishing is natural, after 24 months, in June/ July, and the fall. Freezers cover the open windows.


I have cows spread over a hundred mile radius, with no cover, but I'm not gonna give up growth on mature cows because I don't think they can handle moderate BW, I do have a calving season so I do know and check a lot during that time.

Mature cows are not gaining, they are only calving. Steers are gaining, and not calving. Young females gain and calve. IMHO, this is an all female business.

If a commercial operation, with low BW bulls (roughly BW 0 or below), no need to check

Below is a bull I bought yesterday
https://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl. ... JHrg%3d%3d



Just my opinions.

Appreciate your comments
 
J C thanks for your comments and replies, after looking at the bull you bought were just not raising the same type cattle at all, mine have to grow, perform, and go back into the herd or be gone within a specific time. Nothing wrong either way, Thats why theres chocolate and vanilla ice cream not everyone likes the same thing.
Trying to catch my cows and A I them witout that chute would sure get interesting.
 
We are selling our bulls for $3,800 each. You pick as I found everyone is looking for something a little different. What I feel might be the worst bull in the pen the guy buying think he is the best. If our customers are happy then I am happy.
 

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