BRD and dark cutting costs

[nanabanana]

Working on the business case for a non-antibiotic approach to BRD in feedlots. The industry estimates say BRD runs $800M-$1B/year and dark cutting costs $288M/year in the US. We're trying to figure out if those numbers reflect what actually happens on operations or if they're inflated.

For anyone running cattle through feedlots:

1. What does a BRD case actually cost you all-in? Everything including drug cost.
2. How often does dark cutting hit you and what discount do you take?
3. Thoughts on metaphylaxis on arrival. Effective enough or would you try a working alternative?
4. If someone showed you data that a modified ear tag reduced BRD pulls 20-25%, who would you trust first to try it, your vet, a university trial, a neighbor, or the packer?
5. Are electronic tags like SenseHub worth the money?

Trying to kill this idea or validate it... let us know your real thoughts

 

[bird dog]

Where do you get the information that BRD antibiotics cause dark cutters?

AI says this.
AI Overview



No, BRD (Bovine Respiratory Disease) vaccines do not cause dark cutters. In fact, vaccination is a key part of preventing the respiratory diseases and associated stress that can actually contribute to the condition.
"Dark cutters" (Dark, Firm, and Dry beef) are primarily caused by pre-slaughter stress that depletes muscle glycogen levels before harvest. This prevents the muscle pH from dropping normally after slaughter, resulting in a dark color.

 

[nanabanana]

Where do you get the information that BRD antibiotics cause dark cutters?

AI says this.
AI Overview



No, BRD (Bovine Respiratory Disease) vaccines do not cause dark cutters. In fact, vaccination is a key part of preventing the respiratory diseases and associated stress that can actually contribute to the condition.
"Dark cutters" (Dark, Firm, and Dry beef) are primarily caused by pre-slaughter stress that depletes muscle glycogen levels before harvest. This prevents the muscle pH from dropping normally after slaughter, resulting in a dark color.

I'm not saying antibiotics cause dark cutting, those are two separate problems I'm looking at. Apologies if it was unclear. BRD is the antibiotic cost question, and dark cutting is a pre-slaughter stress question. Have you dealt with either one?

 

[bird dog]

I'm sorry but I don't run cattle thru feedlots. My cost for BRD vacs for calves runs about $6 for two shots at the first work. Probably $4 for the second round which is only for one shot. This gets them to 7 to 10 months if I background them. They are sold after that at a sale barn type facility. The vaccine costs are small in the grand scheme of things.

 

[nanabanana]

Makes sense, appreciate the response. I figure the expensive part is what happens after your cattle hit the feedlot, when shipping stress triggers BRD. Do you have any visibility into how your cattle perform after the sale barn? And do you happen to know any feedlot guys who deal with the treatment side?

 

[Warren Allison]

Makes sense, appreciate the response. I figure the expensive part is what happens after your cattle hit the feedlot, when shipping stress triggers BRD. Do you have any visibility into how your cattle perform after the sale barn? And do you happen to know any feedlot guys who deal with the treatment side?

Welcome to CT Forums. You will get a lot more , and a lot more accurate, responses if you go back into your profile and add your location.

 

[Travlr]

Working on the business case for a non-antibiotic approach to BRD in feedlots. The industry estimates say BRD runs $800M-$1B/year and dark cutting costs $288M/year in the US. We're trying to figure out if those numbers reflect what actually happens on operations or if they're inflated.

For anyone running cattle through feedlots:

1. What does a BRD case actually cost you all-in? Everything including drug cost.
2. How often does dark cutting hit you and what discount do you take?
3. Thoughts on metaphylaxis on arrival. Effective enough or would you try a working alternative?
4. If someone showed you data that a modified ear tag reduced BRD pulls 20-25%, who would you trust first to try it, your vet, a university trial, a neighbor, or the packer?
5. Are electronic tags like SenseHub worth the money?

Trying to kill this idea or validate it... let us know your real thoughts

Yeah, please add a location by clicking on your profile, scroll down to Account details, and put in a state if USA or Canada, and a country otherwise. It will help you get better answers.

As for your questions. Once I sell off the ranch I never see the future results. I've raised my own freezer beef quite a bit and have never had either problem. I don't know of anyone else having these particular problems. I've employed several processors over the years and developed relationships with them, and I don't remember dark cutters coming up in any conversations. It must be very rare. Google says 1 to 3% and I'm skeptical of that figure. Maybe the large packing houses get those figures because they are probably more inclined to be getting beef that isn't ranch raised to finish. I suspect people raising their own finished beef isn't raising the wild ones.

 

[nanabanana]

Thanks for the helpful response. Interesting, the numbers I'm seeing probably do come from the commercial packing house exactly like you said. High-volume operations with long transport chains, I'm trying to understand that particular context better. Might you know anyone on here who runs that kind of commercial feedlot operation?

 

[SBMF 2015]

Thanks for the helpful response. Interesting, the numbers I'm seeing probably do come from the commercial packing house exactly like you said. High-volume operations with long transport chains, I'm trying to understand that particular context better. Might you know anyone on here who runs that kind of commercial feedlot operation?

I’m not managing near the cattle I used to , but here’s some info with out making this to long.
$50-$100 /hd in antibiotics, time, and extra feed for a first time pull. Not to mention I always figured we lost a % of a quality grade. ( if the best a str was going to grade was HI choice and you treated him all of a sudden the best he would do is choice. And so on and so forth every time you repulled)

Dark cutters were few and far between, and most of the cattle were sold live so I didn’t see any dark cutter info from the plant.

 

[nanabanana]

I’m not managing near the cattle I used to , but here’s some info with out making this to long.
$50-$100 /hd in antibiotics, time, and extra feed for a first time pull. Not to mention I always figured we lost a % of a quality grade. ( if the best a str was going to grade was HI choice and you treated him all of a sudden the best he would do is choice. And so on and so forth every time you repulled)

Dark cutters were few and far between, and most of the cattle were sold live so I didn’t see any dark cutter info from the plant.

The numbers are very helpful, thank you.

 

[Ky hills]

We vaccinate calves for BRD but have no knowledge of any results after sale as weaned calves or yearlings.
We finish out our own beef, d so I very limited knowledge about dark cutters as we don’t have the numbers just 1-3 calves per year,
We have not experienced any dark cutters, but have a friend that did have a dark cutter once with one of their beef calves for their personal beef.
I read just now that dark cutters are around 1-3 percent of the total. Doesn’t seem like a huge percentage, but if you consider 1-3 calves out of a 100 and it gets more real and significant.
Disposition, stress, extreme weather changes, are factors that can affect it.
My thinking on dark cutters is disposition and stress are things that can be worked on and improved.
Obviously wild or aggressive cattle are going to be more likely to be dark cutters,
Handling practices and management can be a factor too.
Ideally docile, calm cattle that are handled, loaded, moved properly with an effort to reduce stress should help to decrease the risk of dark cutters.

 

[Dave]

I would think the majority of the BRD comes from cattle who were not vaccinated. Areas with much smaller herd size and no working facilities unvaccinated cattle are probably much more common. I hear people saying they don't announce vaccination information at their sales. So it doesn't pay to do it. Locally here where full time ranches are the rule. Vaccinating for BRD and other things is the norm. They do announce it at the sale. And unvaccinated cattle sell for less.

 

[Brute 23]

I would think the majority of the BRD comes from cattle who were not vaccinated. Areas with much smaller herd size and no working facilities unvaccinated cattle are probably much more common. I hear people saying they don't announce vaccination information at their sales. So it doesn't pay to do it. Locally here where full time ranches are the rule. Vaccinating for BRD and other things is the norm. They do announce it at the sale. And unvaccinated cattle sell for less.

I think it has to do more with calving seasons vs not... not size of herds. You come to the south and many places dont have calving seasons so its pretty tough to vaccinate and get a system down. A lot of those places are pretty good size.

 

[Dave]

I think it has to do more with calving seasons vs not... not size of herds. You come to the south and many places dont have calving seasons so its pretty tough to vaccinate and get a system down. A lot of those places are pretty good size.

I was thinking about the lack of working facilities that smaller places don't have. That and vaccinations not being announced along with buyers not paying more for vaccinated calves. Never considered the lack of calving season because that just doesn't happen here.

 

[Ky hills]

I would think the majority of the BRD comes from cattle who were not vaccinated. Areas with much smaller herd size and no working facilities unvaccinated cattle are probably much more common. I hear people saying they don't announce vaccination information at their sales. So it doesn't pay to do it. Locally here where full time ranches are the rule. Vaccinating for BRD and other things is the norm. They do announce it at the sale. And unvaccinated cattle sell for less.

There’s a range of herd sizes here, used to be 50 cows was probably a good number for an average herd maybe some more maybe a few less.
Now there’s more of a range, quite a few with just 10-20 cows and some with 100+, and a few 800 or more.
Used to be calves were weaned when they were loaded on the truck or trailer to go to market, and at that point they’d most likely never been through a chute either.
When I first started out, very few people had working facilities like is common now, If anything was had it was very crude. Wooden head stocks in a barn stall or some sort of homemade frame with head gate mounted ( which is what we had).
In the late 80’s we got a Filson squeeze chute, palpation cage, and set up an alleyway win barn shed,
Over time more and more people started upgrading their working equipment, and the concept of vaccinating and weaning/backgrounding of calves started being promoted. Now it’s pretty common for calves to have the recommended vaccinations and be several months weaned before selling.
It is announce here.
At some stockyards in addition to announcing, they have a series of lights above the ring that they also light up to indicate status of weaned, vaccinated, and open for heifers.
Theres still several that don’t do anything value added as it’s called with their calves but I’d say it’s well over half that does.
I’ll agree with @Brute 23 too about the defined calving seasons, even some larger outfits just run bulls and sell off a few a long.
Like with the weaning and working, though more people are trying to get more defined calving times as that is one of the biggest steps to money for calves is to sell larger uniform groups.

 

[SBMF 2015]

My thinking on dark cutters is disposition and stress are things that can be worked on and improved.

I think this is one positive side effect of hi cattle prices.
I just don’t see as many snorty cows at the bred cow sales as I used to. And the ones that do come usually end up in the packers pens.
I asked a sale barn vet how a group of cows worked that I was interested in and if there were any bad actors. He said I didn’t need to worry about that because those bad actors always seemed to come up open when he checked them!
The attitude of the whole industry has changed in the last 30 years on disposition.

 

[Ky hills]

I think this is one positive side effect of hi cattle prices.
I just don’t see as many snorty cows at the bred cow sales as I used to. And the ones that do come usually end up in the packers pens.
I asked a sale barn vet how a group of cows worked that I was interested in and if there were any bad actors. He said I didn’t need to worry about that because those bad actors always seemed to come up open when he checked them!
The attitude of the whole industry has changed in the last 30 years on disposition.

I hope that’s the situation ever where.
Disposition needs to be one of the top culling issues in my opinion.
From what I’ve seen over the years, we may have been a few years behind the curve here from working equipment, management practices, and so forth but it does seem like we have caught up in those and other ways. The disposition issue though is still there and in my opinion on that is a lot of that is coming from the registered side of the business as much as anywhere else,
I’ve been to some registered sales over the years and thought whoa some of these cattle are worse acting than most of what goes through the stockyards regular sales.
There’s some registered herds that I wouldn’t even consider buying from,

 

[nanabanana]

There’s a range of herd sizes here, used to be 50 cows was probably a good number for an average herd maybe some more maybe a few less.
Now there’s more of a range, quite a few with just 10-20 cows and some with 100+, and a few 800 or more.
Used to be calves were weaned when they were loaded on the truck or trailer to go to market, and at that point they’d most likely never been through a chute either.
When I first started out, very few people had working facilities like is common now, If anything was had it was very crude. Wooden head stocks in a barn stall or some sort of homemade frame with head gate mounted ( which is what we had).
In the late 80’s we got a Filson squeeze chute, palpation cage, and set up an alleyway win barn shed,
Over time more and more people started upgrading their working equipment, and the concept of vaccinating and weaning/backgrounding of calves started being promoted. Now it’s pretty common for calves to have the recommended vaccinations and be several months weaned before selling.
It is announce here.
At some stockyards in addition to announcing, they have a series of lights above the ring that they also light up to indicate status of weaned, vaccinated, and open for heifers.
Theres still several that don’t do anything value added as it’s called with their calves but I’d say it’s well over half that does.
I’ll agree with @Brute 23 too about the defined calving seasons, even some larger outfits just run bulls and sell off a few a long.
Like with the weaning and working, though more people are trying to get more defined calving times as that is one of the biggest steps to money for calves is to sell larger uniform groups.

Really useful context, thanks. So even with the improvements there's still a meaningful chunk arriving unweaned and unvaccinated at the feedlot end? Curious what proportion you'd estimate that is today.

 

[Brute 23]

I was thinking about the lack of working facilities that smaller places don't have. That and vaccinations not being announced along with buyers not paying more for vaccinated calves. Never considered the lack of calving season because that just doesn't happen here.

Its a backwards world here. It seems the smaller the place the better facilities a lot of the time. LoL

 

[Ky hills]

Really useful context, thanks. So even with the improvements there's still a meaningful chunk arriving unweaned and unvaccinated at the feedlot end? Curious what proportion you'd estimate that is today.

I have no way to know, just basing on what I see at the sales.
Something else to consider is that calves don’t always go directly into feed lots. Many are bought by outfits that background them. At that point, they are generally worked and vaccinated, so the actual percentage of calves totally unvaccinated by the time they reach the feedlots may be quite low.