border

[Bez]

Boy oh boy - go away to buy some cows and it gets busy!

Texan - the answer CRR gave is probably better than I could supply. As usual I did not qualify with a cull definition - what I am talking about is the walking, half walking, limping skeletal things that are now being processed for meat - I have often stated I am prepared to listen and maybe even change an opinion - I guess I make a poor lawyer!

CRR - careful - they are not calling it organic, Their web site simply says natural - no implants and such. Something the Europeans have been wanting for years. True certified organic is something entirely different.

BP - oops slip of the tongue - The One: We agree but for very different reasons. You see I believe we have an opportunity to kick some butt and take some names. You do ot, and that is fine. In the end what you and I think will not matter - the markets will decide. We Canadiansmjust have to step back to the point where we can process and then sell into what used to be YOUR traditional markets. There may very well come a time where you will be forced to take additional off shore beef to supplement your own domestic production. When that happens it does not matter what you want, because it will be the money players and the politicians that make the decision - no matter how hard you b^&% and complain - you WILL have to accept it - those people do not care what you think. It is simply business and unless you have the financial or political clout to control it you will have the following options: "take it on the chin", get out of the business or adapt.

Houstoncutter - the very same applies to you. I know how much power I have in the international decision making process - little to none. Be that as it may, we have never let our people eat a sick animal.

If we start pointing fingers at each other, sooner or later we will say something that cannot be retracted.

I think I might step out of this one now - I have stated my opinion, opened the can of worms and I am afraid it's going to go downhill from here - anyone wants a piece of the action I think I'd rather have it via PM.

Fire away if you want.

All the best

Bez

 

[Oldtimer]

This new confirmed Canadian BSE case will bring many forward to question USDA's proposal-- The "sound science" of BSE is still very unsound- several theories on transmission and cause....... The UTM (under thirty month) opening was already going to get questioned since during the time period between when it was first commented on and now actually proposed their have been cases of BSE found in UNDER thirty month old cattle (at least two in Japan that were just over 20 months old)- something which the USDA had said in their proposal was not possible....

The USDA opening proposal also will allow in meat from OTM (over thirty month) which many consumer groups are opposing since it will allow in meat from pre-feedban cattle-- a very high risk group when coming from a known BSE country.......
Then we have AMI filing suit saying if USDA opens the border to any cattle that OTM (over thirty month) should also be allowed in-- Not only creating more of a human health risk this could allow more high risk cattle into the country which could be perceivably integrated into the US herd--jeopardizing the BSE free status of the US herd......

I think it places the US cattle herd and cattle industry at too big of a risk.... Just like we do in the US between the states with bangs and other livestock diseases- we should isolate until its proven there is no risk.....The border should not be reopened until we have a mandatory COOL law in effect which will leave the decision on what to eat to the consumer......Canada has yet to prove it's BSE free.....

It will be interesting to see if now with this new confirmed Canadian cow if the USDA goes forward with its proposal--The positive test takes some of the wind out of the sails of AMI's suit-- but definitely will add power to the ones that will be filed by several cattle organizations and consumer groups... All which will be negative publicity for beef...

 

[Anonymous]

OT I don't agree with your reasoning that if.... I mean when R-Calf files suit to keep the border closed that it is necessarly bad press. We forget that as ranchers we surround ourself with agricultural media sources and therefore think that everyone else hears it too. I would say the average american consumer doesn't even know about the latest BSE cow in Canada. Most consumers know of BSE it's the media job to say BSE and Canada in the same breath. If you notice the only people who refer to the North American beef industry are the Canadians.....and Jan Lyons... but that's for a further discussion. Ole BEZ thinks she should strike while the irons hot but I think your iron is rapidly cooling. You agrue that "At least were catching them", we have tested a hell of a lot more cattle than Candada per capita were probably about on par I could look up the numbers but it's irrelevant at this time. Please explain how anything good for the Canadian beef industry can come out of ANOTHER BSE COW?

 

[ollie]

They may not teach you nebraska kids, but in the south it is improper to kick a man when he is down. Why don't you go get your book bag ready to catch the bus in the morning. Come with facts and numbers if you want to be in the discussion not the fact that R-Calf is your daddy and the Canadians are the devil!

 

[Texan]

OT I don't agree with your reasoning that if.... I mean when R-Calf files suit to keep the border closed that it is necessarly bad press.

BP, if you don't understand that any bad publicity for beef is damaging to all beef producers, you must really have your head buried in the Sandhills........

 

[frenchie]

You agrue that "At least were catching them", we have tested a hell of a lot more cattle than Candada per capita were probably about on par I could look up the numbers but it's irrelevant at this time. Please explain how anything good for the Canadian beef industry can come out of ANOTHER BSE COW?

Why don,t you post the facts BP and the numbers tested.enlighten u.s.

Most importantly this animal never made it into the food chain. Unlike the Wash cow.

 

[Anonymous]

They may not teach you nebraska kids, but in the south it is improper to kick a man when he is down. Why don't you go get your book bag ready to catch the bus in the morning. Come with facts and numbers if you want to be in the discussion not the fact that R-Calf is your daddy and the Canadians are the devil!

First off son I am not your boy, Secondly I have a substantial amount of money invested into my cattle herd. I refuse to go along with the idea that we need to trade with a country that has a BSE problem if the first two weren't enough the third one surely is. Don't worry, our new ag secretary will give you fits. He is quite accessible right now and plenty of us big ranchers have let him know our thoughts. The facts are that Canada has had 3 cases of BSE and the US has had none. Those my friend are the ONLY facts that I need.

 

[frenchie]

This new confirmed Canadian BSE case will bring many forward to question USDA's proposal-- The "sound science" of BSE is still very unsound- several theories on transmission and cause....... The UTM (under thirty month) opening was already going to get questioned since during the time period between when it was first commented on and now actually proposed their have been cases of BSE found in UNDER thirty month old cattle (at least two in Japan that were just over 20 months old)- something which the USDA had said in their proposal was not possible....

The USDA opening proposal also will allow in meat from OTM (over thirty month) which many consumer groups are opposing since it will allow in meat from pre-feedban cattle-- a very high risk group when coming from a known BSE country.......
Then we have AMI filing suit saying if USDA opens the border to any cattle that OTM (over thirty month) should also be allowed in-- Not only creating more of a human health risk this could allow more high risk cattle into the country which could be perceivably integrated into the US herd--jeopardizing the BSE free status of the US herd......

Meat safety: Is it safe to eat Canadian beef?
CBC News Online | Updated December 29, 2003


Because we don't have all the answers about diseases like mad cow, it's impossible to issue a guarantee about the safety of Canada's meat supply. However, most leading experts and politicians say they believe the risk to Canadians is extremely low.

Federal and provincial agencies have designed the meat inspection process to err on the side of caution. But, the system isn't infallible-a fact made evident in the Aylmer Meat Packers investigation into the possible distribution of "deadstock" to the public.

Deadstock are animals that have died before slaughter, sometimes from illness. The potential of spreading illnesses, including mad cow disease, makes selling or processing meat from dead animals for human consumption illegal.

The inspection process
All animals are inspected within 24 hours before slaughter. If they are considered fit, they go to the kill floor with other inspected livestock. After the slaughter, the entire carcass is examined another time (with particular attention to internal organs). If the inspector has any concerns, a veterinarian is consulted who will pass, condemn or hold the carcass for further testing.



Scientists believe people develop the human version of bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) when they eat meat from infected animals. Speaking about Alberta's one case of BSE, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency said: "Given that the cattle get the disease by eating contaminated feed and there is a feed ban in place, the probability of having more infected animals is very low."

In a statement on its Web site on May 21, 2003, the CFIA said, "…we have no reason, at this point, to believe that there is a risk to human health." It was referring to the fact that no meat from the infected cow had entered the human food chain.

"I believe most sincerely that the beef products that we put on the market are safe," said Alberta Agriculture Minister Shirley McClellan.

Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, Alberta Premier Ralph Klein and federal Agriculture Minister Lyle Vanclief said they would continue to eat beef, insisting there was no need for consumers to panic.

Expert Dr. Neil Chashman, from the Centre for Research on Neurodegenerative Diseases at the University of Toronto, agreed.

"I think we should not be worried," he told CBC Radio's As It Happens. "The human health threat from this is infinitesimal. It is estimated two million infected cattle went into the human food chain in the United Kingdom alone in the '80s and '90s and that unfortunately produced a human form of mad cow disease called variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. This has to date only affected 130 people. That's tragic, of course, but if you compare the number of people affected with two million infected cattle, then you look at Canada's single isolated case or at most a few isolated cases, the risk looks minimal."


During the height of the BSE crisis in the U.K. and Europe in 1992, some consumers avoided British beef and beef products altogether. Others chose cuts with a lower chance of being contaminated, until beef on the bone was eventually banned outright. The British beef industry has still not recovered. There were 510 animals diagnosed with the disease in Britain last year. There were 36,680 cases in 1992.

Here is some basic information issued by the National Center for Infectious Disease and Health Canada about ways to avoid BSE:


The best available scientific evidence indicates that whole cuts of meat without the bone, such as steaks and roast, provide a lower level of risk of potential BSE contamination than do processed products such as sausages, burgers or patés.


Higher risk items also include any other food products such as minced meats that might contain brain or spinal cord parts, since these are considered to have the highest concentration of prions (the disease-causing agent) in infected cattle and therefore carry the highest potential risk of transmission.


BSE is unlike many other food-borne pathogens in that it cannot be killed simply by cooking the infected meat.


Milk and milk products from cows are not believed to pose any risk for transmitting the BSE agent.

 

[Oldtimer]

This new confirmed Canadian BSE case will bring many forward to question USDA's proposal-- The "sound science" of BSE is still very unsound- several theories on transmission and cause....... The UTM (under thirty month) opening was already going to get questioned since during the time period between when it was first commented on and now actually proposed their have been cases of BSE found in UNDER thirty month old cattle (at least two in Japan that were just over 20 months old)- something which the USDA had said in their proposal was not possible....

The USDA opening proposal also will allow in meat from OTM (over thirty month) which many consumer groups are opposing since it will allow in meat from pre-feedban cattle-- a very high risk group when coming from a known BSE country.......
Then we have AMI filing suit saying if USDA opens the border to any cattle that OTM (over thirty month) should also be allowed in-- Not only creating more of a human health risk this could allow more high risk cattle into the country which could be perceivably integrated into the US herd--jeopardizing the BSE free status of the US herd......

Meat safety: Is it safe to eat Canadian beef?
CBC News Online | Updated December 29, 2003


Because we don't have all the answers about diseases like mad cow, it's impossible to issue a guarantee about the safety of Canada's meat supply. However, most leading experts and politicians say they believe the risk to Canadians is extremely low.

Federal and provincial agencies have designed the meat inspection process to err on the side of caution. But, the system isn't infallible-a fact made evident in the Aylmer Meat Packers investigation into the possible distribution of "deadstock" to the public.

Deadstock are animals that have died before slaughter, sometimes from illness. The potential of spreading illnesses, including mad cow disease, makes selling or processing meat from dead animals for human consumption illegal.

The inspection process
All animals are inspected within 24 hours before slaughter. If they are considered fit, they go to the kill floor with other inspected livestock. After the slaughter, the entire carcass is examined another time (with particular attention to internal organs). If the inspector has any concerns, a veterinarian is consulted who will pass, condemn or hold the carcass for further testing.



Scientists believe people develop the human version of bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) when they eat meat from infected animals. Speaking about Alberta's one case of BSE, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency said: "Given that the cattle get the disease by eating contaminated feed and there is a feed ban in place, the probability of having more infected animals is very low."

In a statement on its Web site on May 21, 2003, the CFIA said, "…we have no reason, at this point, to believe that there is a risk to human health." It was referring to the fact that no meat from the infected cow had entered the human food chain.

"I believe most sincerely that the beef products that we put on the market are safe," said Alberta Agriculture Minister Shirley McClellan.

Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, Alberta Premier Ralph Klein and federal Agriculture Minister Lyle Vanclief said they would continue to eat beef, insisting there was no need for consumers to panic.

Expert Dr. Neil Chashman, from the Centre for Research on Neurodegenerative Diseases at the University of Toronto, agreed.

"I think we should not be worried," he told CBC Radio's As It Happens. "The human health threat from this is infinitesimal. It is estimated two million infected cattle went into the human food chain in the United Kingdom alone in the '80s and '90s and that unfortunately produced a human form of mad cow disease called variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. This has to date only affected 130 people. That's tragic, of course, but if you compare the number of people affected with two million infected cattle, then you look at Canada's single isolated case or at most a few isolated cases, the risk looks minimal."


During the height of the BSE crisis in the U.K. and Europe in 1992, some consumers avoided British beef and beef products altogether. Others chose cuts with a lower chance of being contaminated, until beef on the bone was eventually banned outright. The British beef industry has still not recovered. There were 510 animals diagnosed with the disease in Britain last year. There were 36,680 cases in 1992.

Here is some basic information issued by the National Center for Infectious Disease and Health Canada about ways to avoid BSE:


The best available scientific evidence indicates that whole cuts of meat without the bone, such as steaks and roast, provide a lower level of risk of potential BSE contamination than do processed products such as sausages, burgers or patés.


Higher risk items also include any other food products such as minced meats that might contain brain or spinal cord parts, since these are considered to have the highest concentration of prions (the disease-causing agent) in infected cattle and therefore carry the highest potential risk of transmission.


BSE is unlike many other food-borne pathogens in that it cannot be killed simply by cooking the infected meat.


Milk and milk products from cows are not believed to pose any risk for transmitting the BSE agent.

Frenchie-- Thats just what I've been saying---Every statement is "I think" or "I believe" or "as best as we know at this time" or "experts and politicians believe"--- Everything about BSE is still very speculative....

What causes BSE?- prions from contaminated feed?- orgonosphates?- mineral levels?- spontaneous?-- a combination of all of the above?

Still many very competent scientists with totally differing theories of cause and transmission.........

Could it be that since every infected cow found in North America originated in Canada -that there is a combination of those transmission sources present only in Canada that is causing them to become infected???

We just don't know enough to jeopardize the US cattle industry by opening the border......

And as we all now know, thanks to the CBC investigation-- the earlier Alberta cow ended up in livestock feed that was sold to over 2000 farms and was even admittedly fed to cattle.........Which pretty well sets the pre-1997 feed ban date back to 2003.........

 

[Wewild]

And as we all now know, thanks to the CBC investigation-- the earlier Alberta cow ended up in livestock feed that was sold to over 2000 farms and was even admittedly fed to cattle.........Which pretty well sets the pre-1997 feed ban date back to 2003.........

Didn't know this. It is disturbing.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/10/01/bse_041001.html

 

[TheBullLady]

My God.. talk about shotting oneself in the foot!

 

[WORANCH]

My God.. talk about shotting oneself in the foot!

More like between the eyes.....Looks like the border needs to stay closed

 

[WORANCH]

By ROB GILLIES, Associated Press Writer


Harrison said U.S. officials had considered the possibility of additional confirmed mad cow cases in Canada and their action was "based on guidelines set by the World Health Organization (news - web sites)." She said the rule is to be formalized on Tuesday.


Under the WHO guidelines, Harrison said, a country with a cattle population of 5.5 million head over 24 months of age like Canada could have 11 cases of mad cow during a consecutive 12-month period and still be considered a minimal risk country.

 

[Anonymous]

This is a sign from God, the day after we announce we are to reopen the border another Canadian cow comes up with BSE, I acknowledge that BSE in the news is bad for beef but at least the Denver news stations were saying Canadian cow and the Washington Cow was from Canada, this is a step in the right direction and another reason COOL needs to be implemented.

 

[frenchie]

[/quote]

Frenchie-- Thats just what I've been saying---Every statement is "I think" or "I believe" or "as best as we know at this time" or "experts and politicians believe"--- Everything about BSE is still very speculative....

What causes BSE?- prions from contaminated feed?- orgonosphates?- mineral levels?- spontaneous?-- a combination of all of the above?

Still many very competent scientists with totally differing theories of cause and transmission.........

Could it be that since every infected cow found in North America originated in Canada -that there is a combination of those transmission sources present only in Canada that is causing them to become infected???

We just don't know enough to jeopardize the US cattle industry by opening the border......

And as we all now know, thanks to the CBC investigation-- the earlier Alberta cow ended up in livestock feed that was sold to over 2000 farms and was even admittedly fed to cattle.........Which pretty well sets the pre-1997 feed ban date back to 2003.........[/quote]


Ot Tell me is it legal to feed chicken **** in the U.S.....Does the U.S ban the use of rendered beef in Chicken feed.

Seeing as how you value the C.B.C investigations, You needed to see Country Canada investigation into the U.S testing programs....Where amazingly in 500 cases animals showing similar symptoms to B.S.E were swept under the rug . No test was ever done on these animals.




And this other statement..Could it be that since every infected cow found in North America originated in Canada -that there is a combination of those transmission sources present only in Canada that is causing them to become infected???


Or does that mean We are finding them because we are actually looking for them..








Oh and your statement about 2000 farms......Is misleading..
heres what they said.
The agency estimated that feed was sold to as many as 1,800 farms and launched an investigation. They visited 200 cattle operations and found several cases where cows were exposed to the feed. Note the word estimated.......

That statement does,nt say they were all cattle farms.. Out of that there was 200 cattle farms..

Several cases where cows were exposed to feed...

SEveral=means more than 2 or 3, but not many. from websters dictionary.)

exposed directly or indirectly.





And the other statements you make...Thats just what I've been saying---Every statement is "I think" or "I believe" or "as best as we know at this time" or "experts and politicians believe"--- Everything about BSE is still very speculative....

What causes BSE?- prions from contaminated feed?- orgonosphates?- mineral levels?- spontaneous?-- a combination of all of the above?

Still many very competent scientists with totally differing theories of cause and transmission.........

.. was,nt it you that was telling me the other day that muscle cuts could be infected with prions and
that prions could infect the stomach lining.Now you are saying you don,t know.. Whats the story going to be next week.





You also touted the test the Japanese use.To my understanding it is the rapid test.the same one that gives the large #of false positives.Iwas also told the Japanese only test once.

You refered to a 20 month animal begin found with this. BIG Deal in that case....How many cases of B.S.E would the U.S have if they did,nt retest.


We are talkin about cattle under 30 months here. Not breeding stock.














[/u]

 

[Oldtimer]

OT I don't agree with your reasoning that if.... I mean when R-Calf files suit to keep the border closed that it is necessarly bad press. We forget that as ranchers we surround ourself with agricultural media sources and therefore think that everyone else hears it too. I would say the average american consumer doesn't even know about the latest BSE cow in Canada. Most consumers know of BSE it's the media job to say BSE and Canada in the same breath. If you notice the only people who refer to the North American beef industry are the Canadians.....and Jan Lyons... but that's for a further discussion. Ole BEZ thinks she should strike while the irons hot but I think your iron is rapidly cooling. You agrue that "At least were catching them", we have tested a hell of a lot more cattle than Candada per capita were probably about on par I could look up the numbers but it's irrelevant at this time. Please explain how anything good for the Canadian beef industry can come out of ANOTHER BSE COW?

I know too that R-CALF and many cattle and consumer groups will file suit-- They have to in order to protect the US cattle industry.....

Even the USDA admits that their proposal to open the border is going to cost the US cattle industry $2.8 - $3 BILLION a year.......

One of my fears is that with increased BSE awareness one of these days consumers are going to wake up to the fact that there is no way for them to differentiate US beef from Canadian beef or Mexican beef or from any other country-Its all passed off with a USDA stamp as a US product----With the knowledge of all the BSE in Canada this could cause a consumer decrease in demand that will cost the US cattle industry much more than $3 billion..............

My contention is that we should not have to be doing this and in doing so more publicizing Canada's BSE problem-- USDA shouldn't be trying to change the long in place rules and opening the border in the first place- USDA's primary job is to protect the UNITED STATES cattle industry...


OIE hasn't even reduced their BSE rules down to this extent- this is something the USDA has taken upon themselves.....

Hopefully in the weeks to come some of our Senators and Congressmen can bring the USDA powers to be around to saner thinking.....

 

[sue39]

This goes out to everyone,
I own/operate a dairy operation in New York.I hope the border doesn't open for many reasons.I must note that in our area , since the border was closed,The milk prices are up and replacement heifers and calves are bringing some profit to our farm for the first time in years.
I know the Canadian cattle industry is having a heck of a time right now.But personally I don't want to take a chance of BSE infecting my small herd.Let's eradicate BSE before it spreads to the point were it can't control it.After all that's good for everyone involved in the long run.
Thanks for listening Sue39

 

[Anonymous]

This goes out to everyone,
I own/operate a dairy operation in New York.I hope the border doesn't open for many reasons.I must note that in our area , since the border was closed,The milk prices are up and replacement heifers and calves are bringing some profit to our farm for the first time in years.
I know the Canadian cattle industry is having a heck of a time right now.But personally I don't want to take a chance of BSE infecting my small herd.Let's eradicate BSE before it spreads to the point were it can't control it.After all that's good for everyone involved in the long run.
Thanks for listening Sue39

I agree with you but you are a suspect in my book. As an R-Calf large cow calf operation I find fault in all dairy herds. As an educated man I can draw patterns and I see one with DAIRY herds, this is not a problem with on the age of the cows but more simply what you feed them. Most of the people on this board are not Dairy producers but they are Canadians and they have a problem with THEIR dairy herds. I say clean your house before you clean mine, personally I have contacted all state officials to keep the INFECTED boarder closed please give me a call if you have any questions. My EMAIL is [email protected] - if you email me on this matter I WILL give you my cell number. You better make your email convincing enough for me to respond.

 

[ollie]

Thought you were banned Jared. Did you sell that tmr mixer wagon. Once again glad to see that I got it right BP.

 

[Texan]

I own/operate a dairy operation in New York.I hope the border doesn't open for many reasons.......But personally I don't want to take a chance of BSE infecting my small herd.

Sue, since you say that you own and operate a dairy, you should hold yourself to a higher standard where facts are concerned. You should take the time to learn more about the believed route(s) of transmission of BSE. Statistically speaking, there is probably an equal chance of your herd being infected by contact with Canadian cattle and your herd being infected by you coughing on them.