Body Score and conformation on my ankle biter cows

[Little Cow]

'K, I'm pretty thick skinned so you're honest opinions about my Dexters are appreciated. I'm also fairly new to cattle and eager to learn.

Please evaluate these 20 month old pregnant heifers. They are due in April. They are current on vaccines and boosters, (killed type given prior to breeding, iaw instructions). They were wormed two months ago using pour on Ivermectrin, (I took a chance based on vet's recommendations). Is there another wormer I can use safely? They are 5 months along now, and I'd like to get them again soon. Since my vast herd is only 3 strong, I'm planning on giving fecal samples to the vet for evaluation. Will this determine if flukes are present?

IMHO, I let them get too thin, (I'm increasing their grain slowly). :( Also, I am also not as pleased with the second one's conformation, especially near her tail. Could this be just an awkward stage? The bull they were bred to had a very nice, straight topline. How likely is it that her calf wil be cleaner on top?

 

[Little Cow]

 

[dun]

It's getting a bit late in the game to try to get them in much better condition, but they do need more flesh. When eyeing Dexters it's better to compare them to dairy heifers and thr amount of condition they would carry at calving. Even with that in mind, they still need more condition.

dun

 

[MillIronQH]

How much daily gain can you safely put on a Dexter?Z

 

[Little Cow]

Thanks Dun! They are eating coastal hay, (round bale), what's left of the bahia pasture, and 14% grain mix, (which I'm increasing). Is there a safe max percentage of grain vs roughage that preg cows should get? I was going to increase the grain to 4 pounds per cow.

 

[Little Cow]

MillIronQH- Trying to figure that out. :) I suppose it is based on weight of cow, max grain to roughage ratio, and total pounds consumed per day, but I could be wrong.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Little Cow, you have a good sense of humor.

My neighbor had Dexters once. They were only fed hay and held better conformation. Are those gals getting enough hay? They probably need around 20 lbs per day each.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

I would say that putting that much grain into heifers before calving could be risky. All we feed ours is prairie hay from breeding to calving. But we push them a little harder then some before breeding so their condition carries over. You just don't want the calf growing to quick this late in the pregnancy. If you are worried about it, feed free choice hay, and a pregnancy cube you should be able to buy at the feed yard. Usually you only feed 1lb per animal. Don't try to put quick conditioning on the animals, let them gain slowly and then once the baby hits you can push them a little harder.

 

[milkmaid]

Ivermectin is safe to use on pregnant animals. Real life example- I know a fellow who uses it on all his 7 month bred dairy cows when he dries them off (stops milking them). He says he's never had a problem.

Yours are a little stunted. Worming them again right now would be a good idea. If they aren't getting free choice hay, that would be a good start too.

Grain can be given up to 3% of their body weight daily. That's really pricey though -- I usually feed from 1% to just under 2% of their body weight per day when I'm trying to keep them growing right.

IMO I'd bring their grain up to 1.5 to 2% of their body weight, give free choice hay, and as they go into the last 60 days of the third trimester (February-April) I'd back off on the grain a little, maybe down to 1% of their body weight or a bit under. The majority of the calf's growth is done in the last trimester, FWIW. I'm not as worried about feeding grain as some on here are, since I'm used to working with dairy animals and it's not that uncommon for them to be fed grain all the way through pregnancy, and a lot of it, at that.

 

[milkmaid]

Dun commented that you should compare a Dexter's body condition to what you'd want a Holstein's BC to be like at calving, so.....

here's a 20 month old Holstein heifer that's 8 months bred.

 

[Little Cow]

Backhoeboogie- Thanks! :)

As far as enough hay. Well, no. I shifted pastures about month ago, (probably too late), and overestimated what they were getting out of their current pasture, (not used to Florida pastures). Recently dropped a round bale in there to remedy the situation and give them free choice hay. I will keep them on round bales just to be sure they get enough.

I understand what you guys are saying about too rapid growth on calves. Maybe the free choice hay will help and I can go easy on the grain. I been using grain continuously because I was worried about low protein from the pasture.

Just took a weight tape out there and put it around the dun cow, (yeah, they're pretty tame, just had to get pretty low to the ground to grab the other end of the tape :) ). If we call her 'moderate' (poorly finished, according to my Coburn weight tape, she weighs about 755 pounds. She's in the middle compared to the other two. With that weight in mind, where is their 'safe' range for grain? Never had any trouble with bloat on any of them and I've had them since weaning. Ooops, crosspost...just saw yours, Milkmaid. So, theoretically I could go to 7 pounds per cow per day if I increase to 1%? I think I'd be afraid of more than that. If they consume 20 pounds of hay now, is that ratio okay?

 

[Little Cow]

Ooooh, nice picture, Milkmaid. Yeah, I can see the difference. :(

I also see a lot of...what's that ...oh, it's the SKY visible underneath her legs!

 

[Victoria]

They are thin but I'd be less concerned with grain and more concerned with hay. A 20 month old pregnant heifer should be allowed to eat as much good quality hay as she wants. Feed them to the point that there is a little left over the next day to know how much they eat. Do they have mineral? Sometimes it is lack of minerals that will make them look scruffy. Talk to your vet about a good mineral program for your area.
As for the tail head on the second one - she may be in an awkward stage - the butt could be growing faster than the shoulders. Sometimes the ones that grow faster do go through that stage.

 

[Little Cow]

Thanks, Victoria!

They are getting the free choice hay now. As far as mineral, they have a mineral block. I'll ask the extension agent if there are any minerals specifically too high or too low in this area, (soil test was within normal range, but not sure about their hay). I'd ask the vet, but he is not well-versed in cattle. Took forever for him to answer my worming question and it wasn't a very thorough answer. I'm afraid we are too far out for most vets.

 

[Little Cow]

You guys are giving me lots of homework, but I sure do appreciate it!

I'll watch 'em like hawks next fall and get them on round bales sooner.

Meanwhile, I'll look into pregnancy cubes, talk to the extension agent, give the vet another chance to help me with their grain ration, and get the fecal samples tested.

Good news is that they are very bright and energetic. They cavort in pasture a bit and they aren't tearing into the round bale too much, so maybe I wasn't too far off. From the front, they do look pregnant and I haven't seen any signs of heat, so I think they are still okay. With the pictures I took today, I have something to compare them to in the future.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Minerals are a funny thing. I have a brahman/charlais X cow that will eat mineral blocks up, and loose minerals too. I estimate she gets half the minerals I put out. Other cows never seem to touch either.

 

[milkmaid]

7lbs/hd/day is good. I'd probably feed more like 10lbs/hd if it was economical, but I know when you're feeding bagged stuff it often gets really pricey to feed that much.

Cows can only consume so much feed in a given day. So if they're eating 4% of their body weight total, that's 30lbs/hd, which is about right. People often say they only need 2.5% of their body weight, BUT... My vet says a bred cow needs more like 5% of her body weight per day, sometimes 6%, and I do find that mine will eat that much if I let them. For instance, I have a 1400lb cow that WILL eat a 70lb alfalfa bale a day if I give it to her (I usually feed about 3/4 a bale + grass hay and grain).

Anyhow, if they aren't getting that 4% in hay, then they need to make it up in something else. Say 1% of their body weight in grain + 3% of their body weight in hay. If they get more grain, like show steers eating 3% of their weight in grain, then they'll eat less hay, like 1% of their weight in hay. Make sense? So don't worry too much about the grain/hay ratio -- pick how much grain you want to give them, then allow them free choice hay to finish eating what they need for filler. They'll eat less hay as they get more grain, so don't be surprised if hay consumption drops.

FWIW, you're right about grass hay not giving quite as much nutrition as they probably need. I very rarely feed grass hay to my holsteins -- beef cows do fine on it, but holsteins need something with real nutritional value. If I'm feeding anything less than rich alfalfa hay, then grain is an absolute must IMHO. Some might not completely agree with me, but... when I'm getting springers like the heifer in that picture, that sell at 1400lbs at 21 months of age, I think I'm doing something right, enough that I'm not changing it. ;-)

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Milkmaid (as normal) did a great job explaining the ratio of hay/grain.
But, others have warned about feeding grain to a pregnant heifer. WRONG! It is more important for them to be in good condition at the time of calving, than the small amount of weight you might put on that growing calf.
If the dam is THIN (which your cattle would be considered thin) at the time of calving, they will be weaker than they need to be and the calf can also be born thin & weak.
I don't mean for you to dump a bunch of grain, but I would defintely feed 1% maybe increasing to 2% SLOWLY.
Your hay and or pasture may not have any protein in it worth talking about. Cattle can litterally starve to death being fed full feed hay if the hay has none or very little feed value.
There are many dewormers out there that are extremely safe for pregnant cattle. I've used Ivomec, Dectomax, Cydectin on pregnant cows/heifers.
If liver flukes are in your area, I would just automatically treat for them at least once a year. I am not familiar with them.
You may have better luck contacting the state Cooperative Extension Program for beef advice, or the state Beef Cattlemen's Association.
Again, research has proven time and again that a thin cow will have more calving problems, and more likely to have an unhealthy calf.
You won't be able to get them into a 6.5 BCS, but you will stop their condition from getting any worse (3rd trimester takes a lot of resources out of mom) and definately increase their energy along with increasing body condition.
Sounds like you are trying to get on top of a situation that slowly got away from you.
It is very hard for an unexperienced producer to SEE the condition of their cattle.

 

[IL Rancher]

I had some Dexters come in about 3 years ago here and two of them were on the thin side.. The very thin side and it took months to bring the condition back on them with grain. Those two were just not very thrifty animals and depending on the blood line some just never will carry a lot of flesh (I still have a Dun girl that I could poor her full feed as a feed lot and she would still look skiny)..

I think we feed 5 pounds a day of shell corn to the two girls + all the alfalfa hay they could eat and it took 2 months to get them back into condition and cycling . But they weren't pregnant (Too dang skinny to be preg).. Dexters can put conditon on quick if you push them but I wouldn't recommend it if they are in calf right now.

I would second quess your weight tape there. That would be a HUGE dexter heifer and I am not seeing that in your picture.

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

Dexter cows mature at not more than 750#; Dexter bulls mature at not more than 1000#, according to breed guidelines of the American Dexter Cattle Association.

My brother breeds registered Dexters, specializing in Red ones (but also has black ones). Their average daily gain is usually between 1.0 and 1.5# keeping their BCS in the 5-6 range.

Hope this info helps...