Taurus
Well-known member
Like I said, I'm not convinced that they are Angus X Hereford.alexfarms":1p82yhya said:
Blackfords
- Thread starter Okmaines
- Start date
houstoncutter
Well-known member
Jake":2cr3jlu8 said:
If your retaining calves to hit a certain market or trait, I would agree. If your raising calves to be weaned terminal , it makes no sense not to use hybrid vigor.
Jake
Well-known member
houstoncutter":y9v411ss said:
Agreed, that's just not what the first post said so wanted to make sure it was clarified.
Rowdy
Well-known member
I'm curious what you think it is you're giving up?
houstoncutter
Well-known member
More pounds in your calves versus straightbred also a hardier more fertile replacement heifer. To my country boy way of thinking, thats a lot to give up in a commercial setting.
Rowdy
Well-known member
I think you misunderstood me HC. I'm the biggest proponent of the 3 way terminal cross system I know and I agreed with your statement.
Jake then said " even with hv, you are giving up something." My question then is, "what is it you (Jake) feel you are giving up?"
Jake then said " even with hv, you are giving up something." My question then is, "what is it you (Jake) feel you are giving up?"
Jake":pp1t048q said:
Jake
Well-known member
Rowdy":1rmfkqty said:
If I am trying to establish a consistent, predictable genetic base across my cowherd. IMO until I have 3-400 head of cows that are very similar in type and kind I am not getting where I want to be long term crossbreeding. I understand the benefits of a crossbreeding system and how they can be beneficial for producers. I do believe however that you can select genetics within a breed that compliment each other similar to crossbreeding without give up the consistent end product.
Rowdy
Well-known member
You can select genetics that compliment each other all day but you will never see performance that rivals the F1. If two animals within a breed are so extreme in type (they would have to be as there is no HV breeding same type/same breed to same type/same breed) that, when crossed, you get hybrid vigor type performance, the genotype of the parent stock needs to be tested. Not to mention there went your consistency.
Jake
Well-known member
Rowdy":125jc6u6 said:
I don't necessarily agree. Understand your arguement as it is the common place BEEF magazine article.
If I'm going to go buy a simmy or hereford bull to run on my angus cows I"m going to select a bull that has a similar phenotype to the angus bulls that I choose to use as I don't want to sacrifice half of my calf crop to the feedlot (heifers). If you have a linebred type herd and cross it within a breed to something that is a true outcross you will see as much HV as you will across breed using a similar body type animal.
If I have 100 cows and crossbreed them in a terminal system. I know have 100 "steers" to sell. 50 of those "steers" I'm going to get 10-20 cents back on. So what did I actually gain with those 25 or 50 extra pounds? Not to mention now I have to go pay a premium for replacement or bred heifers to put back into the herd. I personally fail to see how this system adds to profitability.
Rowdy
Well-known member
I've nvr even so much as seen a BEEF mag.
I'd agree if you have a "heavily" linebred herd you can experience SOME HV but to say 'as much' is foolish as undoubtedly your linebred herd and your new bull share at least SOME common ancestry which will affect the -operative word- LEVEL of heterosis expressed.
I'm not sure why you include the words 'terminal' when you say - and crossbreed them in a terminal system. Plenty of other British breeds to cross with that you could use that wont effect maternal quality.
I'm not following your .15/.20 discount you're referring to?
I'd agree if you have a "heavily" linebred herd you can experience SOME HV but to say 'as much' is foolish as undoubtedly your linebred herd and your new bull share at least SOME common ancestry which will affect the -operative word- LEVEL of heterosis expressed.
I'm not sure why you include the words 'terminal' when you say - and crossbreed them in a terminal system. Plenty of other British breeds to cross with that you could use that wont effect maternal quality.
I'm not following your .15/.20 discount you're referring to?
Jake
Well-known member
Rowdy":1sngdnmi said:
My discount is because you have terminal heifers. Which to an operation are the same as having steer that are worth less. And if you are breeding maternal to maternal across breed you then have steers that are worth less.
The entire basis of Hybrid vigor is dominant and recessive traits and the heritability of the traits. To put a blanket statement that crossing two breeds will always out perform a "straight bred" animal is just as foolish.
Rowdy
Well-known member
How are maternally oriented f1 steers less valuable than their purebred counterpart?
Jake
Well-known member
Rowdy":wtezq8so said:
I'm not saying they are worth less than their purebred counter part. I would say they are equivalent in value. But by virtue of the HV is always better theory. These steers should be less profitable than a terminal cross calf.
ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
dont forget Jake, tomorrow is the 4th... need to save that energy, cooking steaks...
Jake
Well-known member
ALACOWMAN":2vkq3z5q said:
Got a pretty good trip across the flinthills planned for tonight. Got some cold beer in the cooler, should be a good one.
AussieLim
Well-known member
houstoncutter":1xwh5rhv said:
Commercially cross breeding & utilizing hybrid vigour is a free lunch with huge gains & benefits just wish more would open their eyes.
In saying that I'm not sure about naming new breeds. Lets just agree they are Hereford X Angus or Black Baldies as their nick named.
houstoncutter
Well-known member
AussieLim":12xpy858 said:
Some folks still here Aussie that are drinking the Angus Kool-Aid ..... breeding their straight Angus cattle. Funny though, since they have started Yeild Grades have gone to 3's and 4's and prime has gone down. Me I dont understand it, here in the south I would use F-1Tigers covered with a continental bull. Up north , a Red Or Black Baldy F-1 covered with the same continental bull. If you were going to retain heifers make it a Gelbvieh or Simmental bull end of story works everytime.....
ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
but Jake is using angus, he is building a herd to produce a consistant product you can't build a consistant 4-5 hundred head being all over the place.. keep your eggs in one basket. he is setting himself up for the future..... he's got a plan that will work..... a row cropper dont look down a field and see stalk of corn, and say thats the best one ive ever raised,, among thousand of others... id rather have a hundred good ones ...than 50 great ones.....
Jake
Well-known member
ALACOWMAN":14zcz0js said:
Couldn't have said it better myself. :tiphat: There will come a day when I will crossbreed the lower end of the herd, when I can at least have a pot load of steers and heifers that are bred that way. Today we aren't large enough for that to fit the system.
I'm not saying that crossbreeding is pointless or that there isn't merit to hybrid vigor. But there is no blanket program that fits every operation, this is the program that is working here, and working profitably to meet an end goal. It's all simple economics and one of the first lessons you get it TINSTAAFL
ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
there was a rancher here that did the same,, he sold his calve's over the phone at the stockyard to feedlots.. all steers brought the same across the board.. as did the heifers. we'd take them from the catch pens to his main barn, they where weighed and loaded out. the feedlot owners were there to cull a few out they didnt want. we carried those to the stockyard......
