Birth Weight

[MissouriExile]

I sold a registered bull yearling recently that I had bought as part of a cow calf pair.
I received the papers in the mail and (I'm new to the business) only read them briefly.
The buyer, however, read the papers carefully. He saw that the bull calf had a listed birth weight of 53 lbs.

He was impressed. I found it hard to believe. Is that low of a birth weight common?
Couldn't that low of a birth weight be a negative indicator?

I suppose the breed is significant here, it is Angus.

Do breeders of registered cattle carefully weigh calves just after they are born?

How much can the weights be trusted?

Jon

 

[dun]

As long as the BW is low and the WW and YW are acceptable, I see no problem with a low BW.
If the low BW carrys through to low WW and YW then it would be a negative. I suppose the environemtn the calves are born in and the time of year could also have a bearing. If I was calving in the cold nasty north I would want something heavier for the simple reason that the more mass would be easier to keep warm.
The last part is the tricky one. Some breeders are scrupulous in getting accuarte weights, others not so much. You can trust the numbers as much as you can trust the breeder.

 

[Frankie]

Unless they've changed them this year, American Angus registration papers do not show actual birth weights. Is he, perhaps, looking at the weaning weight EPD? 53 pounds there is good. Breed average is about 40,

We seldom have a calf born here that weighs 90 lbs. But we don't use bulls with negative BW EPDs either. Generally, our actual BWs will be between 70-80 lbs. We did have a couple of really small calves born in the fall. A little heifer weighed 61 lbs. She's healthy and growing, but really a petite, feminine, little thing. We'll see how she grows. As a breed, Angus is known to be easy calving, so we use bulls at or near breed average BW EPDs. Yes, we weigh all our calves within 24 hours after they're born. But nowhere near all Angus breeders report weights to the AHIR program. It's not a requirent to register a calf. I assume everyone is honest until shown otherwise, but remember that EPDs are more reliable than reports of actual weights.

 

[cypressfarms]

I assume everyone is honest until shown otherwise, but remember that EPDs are more reliable than reports of actual weights.

Come on Frankie!, doesn't the registry update sires EPD's (accuracy) based on the progeny??? If someone is fudging on calves, this will definitely affect EPD's.

I'm not sure I'm following you train of thought Frankie.

 

[dun]

I assume everyone is honest until shown otherwise, but remember that EPDs are more reliable than reports of actual weights.

Come on Frankie!, doesn't the registry update sires EPD's (accuracy) based on the progeny??? If someone is fudging on calves, this will definitely affect EPD's.

I'm not sure I'm following you train of thought Frankie.

EPDs accuracys are predicated on more then just one herd. If a bull has calves in a dozen herds that report accurate BW and one or 2 fudge (polite term for lie) the inacurate weights will be balanced out by the accurate ones.

 

[Frankie]

I assume everyone is honest until shown otherwise, but remember that EPDs are more reliable than reports of actual weights.

Come on Frankie!, doesn't the registry update sires EPD's (accuracy) based on the progeny??? If someone is fudging on calves, this will definitely affect EPD's.

I'm not sure I'm following you train of thought Frankie.

Yes, you can cheat on BW reports if you want. But if you're using proven genetics, it won't make much difference. One BW is only one of thousands reported on bulls over the years. There have been bulls that started out with "good" numbers and as their accuracies went up, the numbers went "bad". I can also think of some that started off with average EPDs and got better as the data was reported. I'm grateful to breeders who jump out and use those young bulls and get their accuracies where we can use them. A quick look at a bull's pedigree, parent's EPDs, grandparent's EPDs, online at the Angus Assn will give you a pretty good idea if he's for real or not.

 

[dun]

With one calf crop the bull we had went from a -1.6 to -2.2 for BW and up 1 pound on weaning weight. Accuracy went to .32 from .12. I don;t know how much affect it had but we also reported the calves bron to commercial cows with known breed composition. That's the Red Angus Association but I would imagine the others work pretty much the same.

 

[MissouriExile]

Unless they've changed them this year, American Angus registration papers do not show actual birth weights. Is he, perhaps, looking at the weaning weight EPD? 53 pounds there is good. Breed average is about 40,

We seldom have a calf born here that weighs 90 lbs. But we don't use bulls with negative BW EPDs either. Generally, our actual BWs will be between 70-80 lbs. We did have a couple of really small calves born in the fall. A little heifer weighed 61 lbs. She's healthy and growing, but really a petite, feminine, little thing. We'll see how she grows. As a breed, Angus is known to be easy calving, so we use bulls at or near breed average BW EPDs. Yes, we weigh all our calves within 24 hours after they're born. But nowhere near all Angus breeders report weights to the AHIR program. It's not a requirent to register a calf. I assume everyone is honest until shown otherwise, but remember that EPDs are more reliable than reports of actual weights.

Frankie;

I should have been more specific. He is a Red Angus. The buyer mentioned birth weight but I should have looked at the papers.
I was a little reluctant to mention specifics because I posted his photo a couple of months ago and was told (basically) that he was only good for hamburger.
I told prospective buyers that I didn't think he was a championship bull (had configuration flaws) but he had already bred my hereford heifers and I thought he was sound. I also told them that I had posted his photo on CattleToday and that the responses hadn't been flattering. I have to live and do business around my farm and don't want to mess with my neighbors.
Curiously; the folks that came and looked at him were more concerned with his disposition (he is very gentle in the pasture with people), his papers, his low birth weight, and fertility. I asked (and got) a lot more than hamburger money but not a lot for a bull. I probably sold him too cheap since I could have easily sold him ten times over that day. One guy was so disappointed that he was sold that he has spoken for his 2 month old brother when he is weaned.

Jon

 

[cypressfarms]

I was a little reluctant to mention specifics because I posted his photo a couple of months ago and was told (basically) that he was only good for hamburger.
I told prospective buyers that I didn't think he was a championship bull (had configuration flaws) but he had already bred my hereford heifers and I thought he was sound. I also told them that I had posted his photo on CattleToday and that the responses hadn't been flattering. I have to live and do business around my farm and don't want to mess with my neighbors.
Jon

Jon,

There are people on this post who love nothing better than to put down someone else's bulls. What you have to remember is that these people (on the board) only get to see a picture or two of a bull, and then they judge it. Seeing a bull in the flesh is a totally different experience. Also, there are some really big timers on the board, and they have a "dream" bull in mind. Nothing less would do, but that bull may cost $100,000 or more. You have to take what people post with a grain of salt. They are stating their opinion; and that opinion could change dramatically if they saw the bull in person.

Personally, I would never tell any person "cattle today posters saw him and didn't like him". There are too many variables. Each poster may look for certain traits, and discount others. I have a Brangus bull that I posted pictures of a couple of years back. Everyone joked and called him hatchett butt. Well that hatchett butt is now throwing beautiful calves that are in high demand in the area. We have been offered twice what we paid for the bull. Just for grins, I should post pics of him now; I'm sure that some members would still tear him up. Point is; you have to live with the bull, if you like him - that's all that matters.

 

[MikeC]

The "actual" birthweight on any bull means very little to me unless I know how his dam was managed during the gestation period.

When buying a virgin bull, his EPD's will only be an estimate........... Until his calves' data has been turned in.

I have seen flushmate calves (two calves from the same flush) "Pedigree Estimates" EPD's vary significantly.

 

[Frankie]

Unless they've changed them this year, American Angus registration papers do not show actual birth weights. Is he, perhaps, looking at the weaning weight EPD? 53 pounds there is good. Breed average is about 40,

We seldom have a calf born here that weighs 90 lbs. But we don't use bulls with negative BW EPDs either. Generally, our actual BWs will be between 70-80 lbs. We did have a couple of really small calves born in the fall. A little heifer weighed 61 lbs. She's healthy and growing, but really a petite, feminine, little thing. We'll see how she grows. As a breed, Angus is known to be easy calving, so we use bulls at or near breed average BW EPDs. Yes, we weigh all our calves within 24 hours after they're born. But nowhere near all Angus breeders report weights to the AHIR program. It's not a requirent to register a calf. I assume everyone is honest until shown otherwise, but remember that EPDs are more reliable than reports of actual weights.

Frankie;

I should have been more specific. He is a Red Angus. The buyer mentioned birth weight but I should have looked at the papers.
I was a little reluctant to mention specifics because I posted his photo a couple of months ago and was told (basically) that he was only good for hamburger.
I told prospective buyers that I didn't think he was a championship bull (had configuration flaws) but he had already bred my hereford heifers and I thought he was sound. I also told them that I had posted his photo on CattleToday and that the responses hadn't been flattering. I have to live and do business around my farm and don't want to mess with my neighbors.
Curiously; the folks that came and looked at him were more concerned with his disposition (he is very gentle in the pasture with people), his papers, his low birth weight, and fertility. I asked (and got) a lot more than hamburger money but not a lot for a bull. I probably sold him too cheap since I could have easily sold him ten times over that day. One guy was so disappointed that he was sold that he has spoken for his 2 month old brother when he is weaned.

Jon

Ah. I think Red Angus does require actual BW to register an animal. So perhaps they print it on the registration certificate?

IMO, while I enjoy looking at them, a picture isn't a way to judge cattle. It's hard to say what a buyer is looking for when they look at a bull. I've asked a lot of them and generally don't get a real answer. They just know it when they see it. I guess that's what makes the market, one guy's high choice might be at the bottom of another guy's list.

 

[cypressfarms]

Ah. I think Red Angus does require actual BW to register an animal. So perhaps they print it on the registration certificate?

Yep,

Just pulled out the papers on my Angus plus bull (which is registered through the Red Angus Association of America). At the bottom center, it shows "individual performance" data including birth weight - among other items

 

[MissouriExile]

I was a little reluctant to mention specifics because I posted his photo a couple of months ago and was told (basically) that he was only good for hamburger.
I told prospective buyers that I didn't think he was a championship bull (had configuration flaws) but he had already bred my hereford heifers and I thought he was sound. I also told them that I had posted his photo on CattleToday and that the responses hadn't been flattering. I have to live and do business around my farm and don't want to mess with my neighbors.
Jon

Jon,

There are people on this post who love nothing better than to put down someone else's bulls. What you have to remember is that these people (on the board) only get to see a picture or two of a bull, and then they judge it. Seeing a bull in the flesh is a totally different experience. Also, there are some really big timers on the board, and they have a "dream" bull in mind. Nothing less would do, but that bull may cost $100,000 or more. You have to take what people post with a grain of salt. They are stating their opinion; and that opinion could change dramatically if they saw the bull in person.

Personally, I would never tell any person "cattle today posters saw him and didn't like him". There are too many variables. Each poster may look for certain traits, and discount others. I have a Brangus bull that I posted pictures of a couple of years back. Everyone joked and called him hatchett butt. Well that hatchett butt is now throwing beautiful calves that are in high demand in the area. We have been offered twice what we paid for the bull. Just for grins, I should post pics of him now; I'm sure that some members would still tear him up. Point is; you have to live with the bull, if you like him - that's all that matters.

Cypress;

Actually I value and have a great deal of respect for most of the opinions I received on this bull.
The issue, I think, is the standard that is used. The criticisms the bull received held him to a very high standard. Naturally he fell more than a little short. Justifiably so.
I understood what was said in the context it was given.

Never the less he was my first bull. I raised him from a calf, he had a great disposition and when time came for him to move on I felt he was worth more than hamburger. Instead of taking him to the sale barn I spent $15 putting an ad in the area advertiser paper.

What I learned is that there is a large pool of folks raising cattle on a "less than Ponderosa" scale that need a sound bull for a decent but reasonable price. The papers add a certain cachet (someone thought he was good enough to go to the trouble and expense of registering him). They were impressed when I took them out to the pasture and "Wooly Bully" (my wife named him) sauntered over to check us out and offered his head for a friendly scratch. They were interested is how he moved when he wandered off. One man saw him mount a cow out in the pasture.

All these things speak of another (equally valid) standard. That of a sound work-a-day bull.

I will always be "less than rich" because I sleep better at night when I am "up-front honest" with folks when I sell things. The following quote has always stuck with me..........

"In every successful, long term business relationship, all parties must win."

Just my humble and un-educated thoughts.

Jon

 

[cypressfarms]

I will always be "less than rich" because I sleep better at night when I am "up-front honest" with folks when I sell things. The following quote has always stuck with me..........

"In every successful, long term business relationship, all parties must win."

Just my humble and un-educated thoughts.

Jon

Jon,

In no way am I insinuating that you should not be honest. Humble en-educated or not, if all men/women lived by these rules the world would be a better place. The only reason for my post was to state that there are very viable bulls out there that a small time cattleman can afford. By no means does a bull need to be show worthy to produce healthy profit making offspring. Even different farms may need different qualities in bulls (Example - my cows are too big in frame, so I may want a bull to lessen the frame). Please don't take my comments as me telling someone to not be honest: the truth is the truth, period. However, pictures of bulls can be very deceiving; to judge one from a picture or two can be imprudent (is that a word?)