Backward calves?

[Katpau]

I had an unusual thing happen last calving season. It was the middle of Jan. and I was not expecting any calves for bout three weeks. I was feeding hay to the cows in our feed barn on top of the hill. The cows were walking up slowly taking frequent breaks with there heavy loads, when suddenly one broke into a run. I looked up to see what appeared to be her water bag breaking. When I was done feeding I went to look her over. She did not appear to be at all dilated and her bag was flat. This was her third calf and she had shown plenty of signs in the past. I figured I must have seen the wrong ear tag, so I checked all the other cows and couldn't find any that appeared to be calving. I checked the cows all day and there were no changes. At day break the next day I went out and found this cow very agitated and with two hind feet sticking way out of her rear. I had no luck pulling and went to get help. I figured with those feet out that far this calf was surely dead by now. It took me over two hours to get help to the ranch so you can imagine my surprise when we cranked that calf out and it blinked. We were able to save the calf, but it did take a couple days and a tubing or two before it was back to normal. About three weeks latter I had another cow deliver a backward calf. My vet said around 15% of all calves come backwards, but I find this hard to believe as I have about 40 calves a year and I don't remember seeing any in the last 10 years or more. The second calf born was a related to the first cow. Does anyone think that coming backwards could be an inherited trait? Also I was wondering if those of you who calve large numbers could tell me about how many come backward.

 

[DavisBeefmasters]

We have had exactly 1 backward calf that we have had to pull -- out of many seasons of 50+ calves... now that's not to say that perhaps more have been backwards and calved without our help.

Interesting though 15% seems pretty high to me. I figured this one was just a fluke since that cow hadn't calved that way prior nor has she calved backwards since then.

 

[[Bez]]

Whatever the percentage, there are one heck of a pile of calves that are born unobserved - and some of them come backwards.

Usually no help is required

Lots of info on this topic if you do a search - it was beat to death a while back

[Bez]

 

[I luv herfrds]

We lost 3 calves this spring, they were all born backwards. They were already dead when we pulled them.
Now I don't know about the precentage like your vet was talking about, but we do end up with a breech about every other year.
I'm not going to debate why it happens, because it does.

 

[[Bez]]

We lost 3 calves this spring, they were all born backwards. They were already dead when we pulled them.
Now I don't know about the precentage like your vet was talking about, but we do end up with a breech about every other year.
I'm not going to debate why it happens, because it does.

Wait a minute - two different topics here from the way I see it.

One is born backwards - lots of those.

The other is breech - one or two legs back - preventing the birth and requiring assistance.

Be that as it may - they do come backwards and they most often require no help.

Cheers

[Bez]

 

[novaman]

I don't believe it is inherited to have backwards calves. I had a cow that had 2 of her first 4 calves backwards and I seriously thought she would continue that trend the rest of her time on the place. From the 5th calf through her 11th calf she had normal positioned, unassisted births. This is why I believe it is not heriditary but something fluky. I will have some years that I have no backwards births (that I am aware of) and others years (like last year) that I had 5 backwards calves. Typically calve out about 100-120 head. Something interesting that happened last year, had a Holstein have a backwards calf but it was upside down! It looked to be a normal presentation looking at the feet but upon inspection this little guys was all wrong. Came out alive though.

 

[Katpau]

I agree I have most likely had other backward calves in the past that I haven't observed. I usually avoid watching because I feel it stresses both me and the cow. When I see one calving I just keep doing chores and check from time to time. I don't go in close unless something looks wrong. I don't know where my vet came up with 15%, but I would bet the number is closer to 5%. I worry about the inherited part because I the second calf was by a bull out of the cow whose calf we pulled. I seldom keep a bull, but I bought this cow as a two year old with the bull calf on her. I liked him so much, and his EPD's were so good I had to try him. I bred just 8 cows to him last year and liked his calves. I bred about 25 to him this year then started to worry that there could be some genetic factor in backwards calves. I have never heard anything like that, but wondered if anyone else had. I guess I might find out once we begin calving.

 

[I luv herfrds]

Sorry Bez but to me if it is not the head coming it is breech, no matter if it is the hind feet or the butt.

 

[redcowsrule33]

Sorry Bez but to me if it is not the head coming it is breech, no matter if it is the hind feet or the butt.

Ah, no, technically breech is a tail-only presentation. Theriogenologists do not consider backwards, both feet presented as an abnormal presentation. Maybe you feel I'm splitting hairs, but them's the facts.

 

[vclavin]

We have only had 2 and both were out of high BW cows. I am with my girls so much that it does not bother them for me to be around. I don't go petting or anything like that , but i do walk around.
Blessigns
Valerie Clavin

 

[Katpau]

I am also around my cows a lot. I think some of them are bothered when I watch and some not. The truth is when I watch it stresses me. I have an overwhelming urge to pull and hurry things along if I watch. Five minutes suddenly seems like an hour. I have found it is best for me to leave, do something else, and check things out in a half hour. I do usually take a peek at first to see if things look right, but then I leave them alone. 99% of the time when I come back there is a calf sucking on a cow. If I stay to watch I tend to convince myself they need help when they probably don't.

 

[vclavin]

I am also around my cows a lot. I think some of them are bothered when I watch and some not. The truth is when I watch it stresses me. I have an overwhelming urge to pull and hurry things along if I watch. Five minutes suddenly seems like an hour. I have found it is best for me to leave, do something else, and check things out in a half hour. I do usually take a peek at first to see if things look right, but then I leave them alone. 99% of the time when I come back there is a calf sucking on a cow. If I stay to watch I tend to convince myself they need help when they probably don't.

LOL, I agree. I get the urge to run up and help the little one find the spigot. Frustrating to watch and yet a miracle.
Blessings
Valerie Clavin

 

[hillsdown]

15% does sound high , but if it is caused by a large birth weight calf and a small cow (not roomy) ,it could definitely raise the percentages. I had a backwards last year and one in 2007 both were the second twin. Thankfully I have not had a breech here, touch wood.

The last breech I remember was a big Holstein cow that we used a young sire on , there was no room to correct it so we had a c section done. We didn't weigh our calves as it was not required but I remember bottle feeding him his first few feedings and I couldn't straddle the calf.. So he was a monster. We used 5 straws of that young sire and all took, each calf was huge, and 3 more needed to be pulled but only the one breech ,none backwards. Needless to say the young sire never made it to the proofs list.

 

[I luv herfrds]

Breech birth infant coming either feet or buttocks first.
Now do you see why I call it a breech? Doesn't matter.

Depending upon the mother it is either grab the chains and pull or tell her to pant and call in the helicoptor. Take your pick.

 

[Oldtimer]

My vet said around 15% of all calves come backwards, .

My Vet says the same thing...And from the number of ones I've seen I think they are right...He says that many times the dead newborn calves we find that seemed to be for no reason are because the calf was coming backwards- and the cow didn't have it fast enough and it sucked in a lot of fluid- or the cow didn't get the placenta licked off the nose fast enough and it couldn't get air...

Last year my wife checked heifers at 6 and said she thought one of the Juanada heifers was going to calve soon....I went out at 7 to do chores- just in time to see the calf "shoot" out...First thing I noticed was that it had came backwards- and since the cow was having a little trouble getting to her feet- went over and cleared the placenta off the calfs head- and tickled its nose...By then Momma was up and took over the job...

One of the reasons I like using low BW calving ease bulls for both cows and heifers- as I think it increases the number of live calves even when they do have a different presentation...

 

[dun]

My vet said around 15% of all calves come backwards, .

My Vet says the same thing...And from the number of ones I've seen I think they are right...He says that many times the dead newborn calves we find that seemed to be for no reason are because the calf was coming backwards- and the cow didn't have it fast enough and it sucked in a lot of fluid- or the cow didn't get the placenta licked off the nose fast enough and it couldn't get air...

Last year my wife checked heifers at 6 and said she thought one of the Juanada heifers was going to calve soon....I went out at 7 to do chores- just in time to see the calf "shoot" out...First thing I noticed was that it had came backwards- and since the cow was having a little trouble getting to her feet- went over and cleared the placenta off the calfs head- and tickled its nose...By then Momma was up and took over the job...

One of the reasons I like using low BW calving ease bulls for both cows and heifers- as I think it increases the number of live calves even when they do have a different presentation...

The biggest problem with backwards presentations is that if the cow takes too long the umbilical cord is pinched between the calf and the pelvic bone and it suffocates. With a normal presentation by the time the umbilical cord reaches the plevis the calves head is out in the air so it doesn;t suffocate.

 

[Oldtimer]

My vet said around 15% of all calves come backwards, .

My Vet says the same thing...And from the number of ones I've seen I think they are right...He says that many times the dead newborn calves we find that seemed to be for no reason are because the calf was coming backwards- and the cow didn't have it fast enough and it sucked in a lot of fluid- or the cow didn't get the placenta licked off the nose fast enough and it couldn't get air...

Last year my wife checked heifers at 6 and said she thought one of the Juanada heifers was going to calve soon....I went out at 7 to do chores- just in time to see the calf "shoot" out...First thing I noticed was that it had came backwards- and since the cow was having a little trouble getting to her feet- went over and cleared the placenta off the calfs head- and tickled its nose...By then Momma was up and took over the job...

One of the reasons I like using low BW calving ease bulls for both cows and heifers- as I think it increases the number of live calves even when they do have a different presentation...

The biggest problem with backwards presentations is that if the cow takes too long the umbilical cord is pinched between the calf and the pelvic bone and it suffocates. With a normal presentation by the time the umbilical cord reaches the plevis the calves head is out in the air so it doesn;t suffocate.

Yep- the main thing with backward calves is to get them out fast...If I see a cow having one backwards (hooves pointed up) I usually run get the puller so I know I can get it out fast- but luckily, several times its already been on the ground by the time I get back with the puller...
With the lighter BW calves often their is more room to manipulate to solve a problem presentation...Also two years ago I had one old cow that I found with one hoof out pointed up...She was down so I was able to just go up and reach in and ascertain it was coming backwards- with one leg bent under and hung up...Easily pushed the calf back got the other leg up- and stuck the chains and puller on - and zippo- a nice 80lb bull calf...

My Vet says- and I agree with it- that he sees a lot more abortions, backward, breech, and abnomal presentations during years when there is a lot of ice before calving time....Cows slip and the calves get into an awkward position..

 

[dun]

I sure agree with your vet! The cow that really got to me was the one that I found with just a tail sticking out, no feet. By the time I got to the house called the neighbor for help getting it out and went back to get her in the barn she had layed down and had the calf with the back legs still tucked underneath. Man, that had to hurt!

 

[Katpau]

I have seen a number of people mention large calves as being associated with backward presentation. I found this interesting. I wonder if the percentage of backward calves might be different in different breeds. My vet raises Balancers. I was curious what "Oldtimer" raises. My calves weren't small, but not extremely large. The first calf I believe came before it should have been ready. Two weeks before the next calf. Bulls went in April 25 and calf arrived January 22. Cow was neither bagged up or lose in the rear when I saw that water bag break. She was running up hill to try and beat the other cows to the hay. I don't think the calf had moved into proper position before things happened. It would probably have been a huge calf since it was 82 pounds. The second one was 87 lb. Big, but not huge. All of my calves by three different bulls were bigger than normal this year. I don't know if it was due to cold weather, my feed, or what.
I am still amazed at her delivering a live calf since that water bag broke over 24 hours before we pulled that calf. When you add that to the 2 to 3 hours those hind feet stuck out before I could get help pulling, it seems like a miracle.

 

[Oldtimer]

I have almost all angus now Katpau- but have had other breeds in the past...

According to my Vet- the reason malpresentations are sometimes seen more often in the larger birthweight calves is that the calf for much of its development in the uterus is backward-- and then flips over sometime before delivery... If the calf is large- or the cow is overfat- sometimes it doesn't do/can't do the flip over to proper position to come head first...