Aurochs

[coaklnic000]

Hi I was wondering do we know which came first? Indian or European Aurochs. Thanks I really enjoy hearing y'alls thoughts on the history of cattle.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Europe.

 

[Son of Butch]

Hi I was wondering do we know which came first? Indian or European Aurochs.

IF they originated in North Africa, as some suppose, I'd speculate their migration reached
Europe before India. But that's just my semi-educated guess.
IMO -
The modern world is better off without them and for all I care can stay where they are; extinct.

 

[coaklnic000]

Thanks guys

 

[WalnutCrest]

Hi I was wondering do we know which came first? Indian or European Aurochs.

IF they originated in North Africa, as some suppose, I'd speculate their migration reached
Europe before India. But that's just my semi-educated guess.
IMO -
The modern world is better off without them and for all I care can stay where they are; extinct.

Better off without them?

You've had personal experience with them, have you?!

 

[Son of Butch]

They went extinct just 4 or 500 years ago, so there are plenty of recorded accounts.
Julius Caesar's 1st hand report after encountering them during Gallic War in 50 bc was so
wild, fearless and aggressive he didn't believe even a young Auroch calf could be domesticated.
They would turn on hunters and hunt them down through the forest... no thank you.

IMO - They were never domesticated, but passed their genes on to cattle by bulls mating with cows
in domestic herds when they did cross paths. Auroch cows were so wicked they'd kill a bull they
deemed unsuitable rather than mating with them.

While some modern breeds of cattle share segments of dna with Aurochs, there are more breeds
that don't than do.

 

[Redgully]

They went extinct just 4 or 500 years ago, so there are plenty of recorded accounts.
Julius Caesar's 1st hand report after encountering them during Gallic War in 50 bc was so
wild, fearless and aggressive he didn't believe even a young Auroch calf could be domesticated.
They would turn on hunters and hunt them down through the forest... no thank you.

IMO - They were never domesticated, but passed their genes on to cattle by bulls mating with cows
in domestic herds when they did cross paths. Auroch cows were so wicked they'd kill a bull they
deemed unsuitable rather than mating with them.

While some modern breeds of cattle share segments of dna with Aurochs, there are more breeds
that don't than do.

Heck reading that description i think i had one here a while back, must have been a genetic throw back. No wonder they extinct, that thing didn't last long here either!

 

[Bright Raven]

IMO - They were never domesticated, but passed their genes on to cattle by bulls mating with cows
in domestic herds when they did cross paths. Auroch cows were so wicked they'd kill a bull they
deemed unsuitable rather than mating with them.

Aurochs are wildly held to be the primary progenitor of domesticated cattle. There were many species of wild cattle across Europe and Asia. A couple still exist (but not Aurochs). Some believe that primitive man is likely to have domesticated cattle in more than one location and from more than one source. There are several genomic studies that have found genes suggesting other species of wild cattle than Aurochs as the progenitors of domestic cattle. It may never be fully known.

Here is one that is interesting:
https://www.livescience.com/28154-new-world-cattle-origins.html

 

[Son of Butch]

Not that interesting, thought it would link to the actual research rather than public musings.

 

[Son of Butch]

I understand that you can't see the other side of the coin, but....
Domestic animals were created in 4500 bc (+ or - a few hundred years) in ch 2.
Wild animals living today were created perhaps as much as 8,000 years earlier in ch 1.
I won't expand on it here, so as not to get locked.
But I will answer pms.

 

[Muddy]

There are several people that are attempting do a recreation of Aurochs. For some weird reason one group wants to create an American Auroch here. I thought that group is nuts.

 

[Lucky_P]

Some interesting stuff on aurochs, Heck cattle, and attempts to re-create them (and other extinct species) here:
http://breedingback.blogspot.com/2018/

 

[Bright Raven]

Not that interesting, thought it would link to the actual research rather than public musings.

Butch here is a summary. Research based. A pdf of the study is available but you have to pay for it:

Domestication of the now-extinct wild aurochs, Bos primigenius, gave rise to the two major domestic extant cattle taxa, B. taurus and B. indicus. While previous genetic studies have shed some light on the evolutionary relationships between European aurochs and modern cattle, important questions remain unanswered, including the phylogenetic status of aurochs, whether gene flow from aurochs into early domestic populations occurred, and which genomic regions were subject to selection processes during and after domestication. Here, we address these questions using whole-genome sequencing data generated from an approximately 6,750-year-old British aurochs bone and genome sequence data from 81 additional cattle plus genome-wide single nucleotide polymorphism data from a diverse panel of 1,225 modern animals. Phylogenomic analyses place the aurochs as a distinct outgroup to the domestic B. taurus lineage, supporting the predominant Near Eastern origin of European cattle. Conversely, traditional British and Irish breeds share more genetic variants with this aurochs specimen than other European populations, supporting localized gene flow from aurochs into the ancestors of modern British and Irish cattle, perhaps through purposeful restocking by early herders in Britain. Finally, the functions of genes showing evidence for positive selection in B. taurus are enriched for neurobiology, growth, metabolism and immunobiology, suggesting that these biological processes have been important in the domestication of cattle. This work provides important new information regarding the origins and functional evolution of modern cattle, revealing that the interface between early European domestic populations and wild aurochs was significantly more complex than previously thought.

 

[Son of Butch]

Auroch bones found in Britain 6,750 yrs old - 2015 when studied = 4,735 bc and were found to share
short segments of dna with some modern British and Irish cattle. ie Highland, Kerry and White Park
ect, but did not share any dna with angus, holsteins and others.

Proof that possibly between 4,500 bc - 1500 ad some Aurochs mated with some domestic cattle.
What would be interesting is getting it dated to when the crossbreeding occurred.

That hybrids were produced is true, but there is no record that any Auroch was ever domesticated.

Seems the only guys who think a true Auroch could be domesticated are the ones that have only
seen them under a microscope. Reports from men who actually encountered them say otherwise.
Some people have kept cougars, but that doesn't mean cougars have been domesticated.

 

[gaurus]

While some modern breeds of cattle share segments of dna with Aurochs, there are more breeds
that don't than do.

What you are talking about? 100% of Bos Taurus breeds(European/Asian/North African) breeds can trace their lineage back to Aurochs! European Aurochs are Bos primigenius primigenius and the domesticated european cattle is Bos primigenius taurus(aka Bos Taurus), Zebu cattle can trace their lineage to the Indian Aurochs(Bos primigenius namadicus).

Your post is really out of line and makes no sense. If European domestic cattle share only segments of DNA with Aurochs, where do they get the rest from? Aliens? Cause sure as hell ain't from other wild bovine(Yak,bison,Gaurus).

Taurine cattle were domesticated in the Middle East from the wild and now extinct Aurochs. They then spread throughout Europe where they interbred with local population of European Aurochs, for example in the British Isles then domesticated cattle(descending directly from first domesticated Aurochs in the Middle East) interbred with British Aurochs. In Spain and Iberia domesticated cattle interbred with Iberian Aurochs(later thru the Moorish invasions some zebu interbreeding took place, Texas Longhorn are about 85% European Taurus and 15% Zebu).

At the time in Europe and Middle east The only wild bovine were the Aurochs(European Bison range was much north and were more wild than even the wildest Aurochs), no other possible descendant from domestic cattle than European/Middle East Aurochs. So to imply that modern cattle do not descend from Meddle east Aurochs first then interbred when they were already domesticated with local European wild Aurochs makes no sense.

 

[Bright Raven]

While some modern breeds of cattle share segments of dna with Aurochs, there are more breeds
that don't than do.

What you are talking about? 100% of Bos Taurus breeds(European/Asian/North African) breeds can trace their lineage back to Aurochs! European Aurochs are Bos primigenius primigenius and the domesticated european cattle is Bos primigenius taurus(aka Bos Taurus), Zebu cattle can trace their lineage to the Indian Aurochs(Bos primigenius namadicus).

Your post is really out of line and makes no sense. If domestic cattle share only segments of DNA with Aurochs, where the be nice do they get the rest from? Aliens? Cause sure as be nice ain't with other wild bovine(Yak,bison,Gaurus).

Most evolutionary biologist agree with you.

 

[gaurus]

Most evolutionary biologist agree with you.

I did an extensive edit on my previous post, you may want to check it out.

 

[Bright Raven]

Most evolutionary biologist agree with you.

I did an extensive edit on my previous post, you may want to check it out.

Thanks. With further genomic research, the picture on the progenitors of domestic cattle will become more clear. Most of the papers you find on a Google search are commentary. The biological journals are the best source of research papers. Many of those can be downloaded as PDF files but there is a fee.

Your thoughts follow the mainstream thinking. What Butch is saying is that the auroch DNA in domestic cattle resulted from wild Aurochs interbreeding with domestic cattle in the pasture. Thus, he assumes either Devine creation of domestic cattle or that they originated from one of the other wild cattle species. He would have to address that.

 

[gaurus]

Your thoughts follow the mainstream thinking. What Butch is saying is that the auroch DNA in domestic cattle resulted from wild Aurochs interbreeding with domestic cattle in the pasture. Thus, he assumes either Devine creation of domestic cattle or that they originated from one of the other wild cattle species. He would have to address that.

I think he must be referencing recent data about British Auroch Genome found on current British domestic cattle: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4620633/

An excerpt from the research: "The data in hand have revealed that British aurochs significantly contributed to the genetic makeup of modern British and Irish cattle."

But this is also on the research: "However, it reports the genome of a single British animal, which lived about 4000 years after aurochs were first domesticated in the Fertile Crescent. Complete genome sequencing of early Neolithic aurochs from this region will be crucial for unraveling the genetic foundation of cattle domestication."

So the genome sequenced that was used for comparison with domestic British cattle was of a single British Auroch speciment much younger than the Wild Aurochs from the middle east that were eventually domesticated about 10,000 years ago.. Mind you a very small percentage of those Middle Eastern Aurochs were domesticated(some say as few as 80 cows are the ancestors of all the domestic cattle that followed) so it's more than expected that their genome will not match 100%. But there should be no question that the Wild Aurochs are the ancestors of modern european cattle, more precisely northen, british and northern continental breeds(a blend of mostly middle eastern Aurochs/Domestic Cattle with input from local European Aurochs). Iberian cattle breeds and Italian breeds have some input of Bos Indicus(minor but detectable by genetic sequencing) .

 

[Bright Raven]

Your thoughts follow the mainstream thinking. What Butch is saying is that the auroch DNA in domestic cattle resulted from wild Aurochs interbreeding with domestic cattle in the pasture. Thus, he assumes either Devine creation of domestic cattle or that they originated from one of the other wild cattle species. He would have to address that.

I think he must be referencing recent data about British Auroch Genome found on current British domestic cattle: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4620633/

An excerpt from the research: "The data in hand have revealed that British aurochs significantly contributed to the genetic makeup of modern British and Irish cattle."

But this is also on the research: "However, it reports the genome of a single British animal, which lived about 4000 years after aurochs were first domesticated in the Fertile Crescent. Complete genome sequencing of early Neolithic aurochs from this region will be crucial for unraveling the genetic foundation of cattle domestication."

So the genome sequenced that was used for comparison with domestic British cattle was of a single British Auroch speciment much younger than the Wild Aurochs from the middle east that were eventually domesticated about 10,000 years ago.. Mind you a very small percentage of those Middle Eastern Aurochs were domesticated(some say as few as 80 cows are the ancestors of all the domestic cattle that followed) so it's more than expected that their genome will not match 100%. But there should be no question that the Wild Aurochs are the ancestors of modern european cattle, more precisely northen, british and northern continental breeds(a blend of mostly middle eastern Aurochs/Domestic Cattle with input from local European Aurochs). Iberian cattle breeds and Italian breeds have some input of Bos Indicus(minor but detectable by genetic sequencing) .

Could be.