At the sale barn.

[Sir Loin]

At the sale barn.

This is a spin off of:
I was sold a cow with Johne's, what do I do?


Where ALACOWMAN said:

i dont believe you can really eyeball one and tell,,,

That is true, but there is such a thing as an educated guess that could lead an experienced cattleman to believe the chance of Johne's exists.

The last one I seen at the auction barn and bid on, was about a 5 YO cow with a 300 lb calf at her side.
I put the probability of Johne's at about 80% plus.

She was squirting brown water. She was skinny for our location and time of year and walked with an arched back. It was obvious what ever she had, she has had for some time. The calf was in fairly good condition and the cow was attentive to him and appeared to be a good mamma.
My assumption was, IF this cow could have been saved from slaughter, the owner would have saved her, but could not. And as he was trying to sell her as a pair he felt she was a good breeder.
I truly believed the owner did not know why this cow was in this condition any more then I did, except I have had experience and I know about Johne's. I did not and do not believe he was trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. IMO, this was just one of many cases of inexperience at the auction barn.

When the pair hit the ring, experience took over.
Here is how I bid the pair.
I wanted the calf, but not the cow, but would take the cow to get the calf. I would gamble on the 20% that it was not Johne's.
I put the value of the calf at $300 and the cow at $200 because of the 80% chance of Johne's.

I won the bid at $450, but the owner rejected it. Had the owner not been there to reject the bid, I would have owned the pair for $450.
The cow was removed from the ring and put in the weigh pen and the calf was re-bid alone. He sold for $345. My last bid was $300.
The cow was later brought back into the ring as a weigh cow (925 lbs ) and sold for .47 per lb. ($434. )
Owner got a total of $779. For both.
Both prices were to rich for my blood with an 80% gamble I would be dealing with Johne;s.

What was I going to do with the pair had I bought the pair for $450?
I would have taken the calf home and run the cow right back through the ring as a weigh cow.

Hope that helps you'll better understand the auction process.


SL

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Forgive my ignorance Sir Loin but is Johne's Disease contagious within a cow herd?

 

[Sir Loin]

Yes!

Johne's (pronounced "Yo-nees") disease is a chronic, contagious bacterial disease that affects the small intestine of ruminants such as cattle,

Source: http://www.johnesdisease.org/

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Seems rather bold to take a likely infected animal back to ones own ranch or farm then to my way of thinking. Did you have a special quarantine arranged?

 

[Sir Loin]

Re:

Did you have a special quarantine arranged?

Yes. As I take in many sick, orphaned and unwanted animal I have made provisions for quarantining.
I only bid because I was short on feeder calves so I was willing to gamble on this calf.
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

FYI:
If you do the math, that $434 the owner got for the cow as a weigh cow would have been mine had the owner not been there to reject my won bid for $450 for the pair.
Which means I would have gotten the calf to take home for only $16.

Fact: I will buy a 300 lb calf for $16 all day long, as long as it is not room temperature.
SL

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

That's math even a mortgage guy can understand.

 

[Sir Loin]

OK, now look at this.

If I am a good judge of weight, and I believe I am, as they don't give the weight when selling by the head, I judged this calf to weigh 300 lbs.+ -

Now remember my last bid for the calf was $300, or $1.00 per lb. based on my judgment. Of 300 lbs.
The calf sold for $345. Or $1.15 per lb based on my judgment of 300 lbs.

Later that day, calves weighing 300 lbs sold for a high of $1.47 per lb. The avg. price was $1.18
At the high of 1.47 that makes the head price: $441. And at the avg. head price $354.
My last bid for the calf was $300 or $1.00 per lb.

This is an example why you need to be able to judge weight if you are going to bid per head.
The best way to do this is to go to the "by the lb." auctions and judge the weight as the animal comes into the ring, then look at the sale board and see how you did.
Height should give you a clue as to weight, so pick a spot on the wall where they come in and use that spot as an indicator of height which should help you judge the weight.
Good luck and don't get discouraged, it will take you some time to learn judging weight.

I lost a lot of Dr. Peppers before I learned.
SL

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Interesting Sir Loin, thanks.

 

[TexasBred]

Interesting Sir Loin, thanks.

Quality of the calf has more to do with it than weight. Doesn't matter what the weight is...junk sells as junk. Half the cattle that come thru a sale ring have thin manure unless they are just really laid back. They've been hauled, poked, prodded, hit with a hot shot and kept on the move.

 

[Goodlife]

Thanks Sir Loin.

I think we understand that Tex, but I believe SL was making that statement when he reduced the price of the cow based on it being unhealthy. We rookies are learning that both health and weight are important in making a good cattle purchase. I hope that in time I will be able to spot a good or bad buy based on all the above as you and Sir Loin are able to. As you allude to, it takes experience to know that squirt is a disease or stress.

I asked this in another post, so sorry if it is redundant, but can a bovine with Johnes be consumed safely by humans? Would the slaughter house reject it if they knew?

 

[highgrit]

I like to bring and older gentleman farmer with me, some folks know what their looking at right now. Plus when I'am buying he stops me from bidding against some order buyers that are running up the price. You can lose big at the sale barn.

 

[inbredredneck]

Sure makes it nice when the scale is the sale ring huh?

 

[houstoncutter]

What a load of B.S., why would anyone in there right mind want to bring an animal or its offspring onto your place that you think has Johnes... That few extra bucks your gonna make, could be real costly when you have to liquidate your entire herd because your entire herd has become infected

 

[Sir Loin]

TexasBred

Quality of the calf has more to do with it than weight. Doesn't matter what the weight is...junk sells as junk.

True, but height and weight are two factors that will help you determine it is junk.

Half the cattle that come thru a sale ring have thin manure unless they are just really laid back.

Thin manure, maybe, but not squirting brown water 2 foot out the back end.

They've been hauled, poked, prodded, hit with a hot shot and kept on the move.

True in Texas, where you raise range cattle but here east of the Mississippi we don't raise range cattle.
Our cattle see humans almost on a daily basis, not just at round up time, which makes them docile and lay back
Eastern cattle are not stressed as you are use to doing.

What you don't understand is that our cattle are treated all together differently then you treat range cattle in Texas.
I'm not saying you are wrong, just different and you need to understand that.
Our cattle don't go through all the stress you described, and more, such as being chased with a horse or 4 wheeler.
Our beef cattle come when they are called and are about as docile as dairy cattle.
In shout, our stress factor is a 1 or 2, whereas your stress factor is a 9 or 10.
Please keep that in mind.
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

Goodlife,
Re:

can a bovine with Johnes be consumed safely by humans?

I don't know about "safely". But my best guess would be yes as the deceased part is the digestive track which is not eaten.

Would the slaughter house reject it if they knew?

I don't think so as I have seen them buy them when it was obvious why the cow was in the weigh pen. As far as I know, the only thing I know a slaughter house will reject is a downer.

But it is something, as a cattleman, you/we need to think about with all this talk of "traceability", which carries with it "liability".
See:
Coffee shop: Animal Disease Traceability
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=73453

SL

 

[Sir Loin]

houstoncutter

What a load of B.S., why would anyone in there right mind want to bring an animal or its offspring onto your place that you think has Johnes...
First I wouldn't bring an "animal" I suspected had an 80% chance of having Johne's onto my place. But I would bring a 50% chance, cow or off spring.
And a 50% chance is where I had this calf.

So for $16 I would buy him, quarantine him and have him tested.
If he tests pos. I donate him to The University of Tennessee and take my $16 loss.
If he test neg, I got a $354 calf for $16.
If he is neg. I cut him, put a couple 100 more lbs on him and now we are talking about making some real money.

One mans trash is another man's treasure!
SL

 

[ALACOWMAN]

glad you aint my neighbor then.. im constantly worried about my neighbors dragging in a infected animal, and not just johnes ether,,after all we do share flies and air together

 

[Sir Loin]

ALACOWMAN

Re:

glad you aint my neighbor then.. im constantly worried about my neighbors dragging in a infected animal, and not just johnes ether,,after all we do share flies and air together

Well I look at it this way.
You are far better off with me as a neighbor, who knows, or at least suspects, what I am bring in and will deal with it properly then a neighbor who hasn't got a clue what he is bring in or how to deal with it.

Did you ever stop to think about what your neighbors think about what you bring in?
After all we do share flies, mosquitoes and air together.
SL

 

[ALACOWMAN]

ALACOWMAN

Re:

glad you aint my neighbor then.. im constantly worried about my neighbors dragging in a infected animal, and not just johnes ether,,after all we do share flies and air together

Well I look at it this way.
You are far better off with me as a neighbor, who knows, or at least suspects, what I am bring in and will deal with it properly then a neighbor who hasn't got a clue what he is bring in or how to deal with it.

Did you ever stop to think about what your neighbors think about what you bring in?
After all we do share flies, mosquitoes and air together.
SL

dont think my neighbors worry about anything.........fact i know they dont.. but they do know me well enough to not have to worry bout knowingly bringing in anything