Are Most Producers Inefficient?

[Lucky]

He said some thing to the effect of we don't raise calves on milk. Once you get past the first (forgot what time period he said) we raise calves on grass and supplement milk.

That's funny he says that, everything I've ever read says when a calf is with it's mother nothing will take the pressure off the cows milking ability. Milk always comes before creep feed, grass, or protien supplements when it comes to calf growth or taking the pressure off a cow.

We looked into this because of the late year droughts we've been having. I thought if we had creep feed out the calves wouldn't go for the milk as much and the cows would look better. Not saying the guy is wrong or the calves won't gain more it's just a different take than I've heard.

 

[Lucky]

It's in Mt Pleasant Texas. It's 18 hours from where my friend lives so I'm guessing it's a whole lot closer to you than me. Ha.

Mt Pleasant, Tx is 30 minutes from me. I wish him the best with acclimating the bulls. We've about given up on moving cattle North to South. They adapt but it takes a good while.

 

[RDFF]

Thats interesting. Kind of along the same lines as the RA Brown guy wanting those bulls to not adapt their gut to corn if they are going to be expected to breed on grass.

Precisely.

 

[NIdahoShorthorns]

It seems a properly selected herd of cows should be able to convert grass to milk as wells as the steers can convert grass to meat/fat. I can't prove it but it seems there is evidence to suggest milking and IMF are related; it also makes sense as both are feed conversion. So if a cow isn't converting grass to appropriate milk, is the steer capable of grading well? I would say have as much milk as she can produce on a given feed system and still cycle back in 60 days.

 

[Brute 23]

That's funny he says that, everything I've ever read says when a calf is with it's mother nothing will take the pressure off the cows milking ability. Milk always comes before creep feed, grass, or protien supplements when it comes to calf growth or taking the pressure off a cow.

We looked into this because of the late year droughts we've been having. I thought if we had creep feed out the calves wouldn't go for the milk as much and the cows would look better. Not saying the guy is wrong or the calves won't gain more it's just a different take than I've heard.

Thats a different deal than what he is saying from my understanding, in the context.

Did you listen to the whole conversation or just reply to my one snip of it?

 

[Brute 23]

It seems a properly selected herd of cows should be able to convert grass to milk as wells as the steers can convert grass to meat/fat. I can't prove it but it seems there is evidence to suggest milking and IMF are related; it also makes sense as both are feed conversion. So if a cow isn't converting grass to appropriate milk, is the steer capable of grading well? I would say have as much milk as she can produce on a given feed system and still cycle back in 60 days.

Thats is what they are saying. He was warning against chasing milk epds, like most every one on here has agreed ends bad.

People keep trying to twist his words to extremes to discredit them. They really arent doing any thing most of us dont already know ir have experienced. They just arent pushing these big breed associations or feed producers marketing, imo. Its just an organized, modern, throwback to common sense cattle raised with nature on grass.

 

[Travlr]

Kit said some thing in that interview I posted that rang a bell with me also. He was talking about how bad high milking cows can be.

He said some thing to the effect of we don't raise calves on milk. Once you get past the first (forgot what time period he said) we raise calves on grass and supplement milk.

Thats the first time I've heard some one say that and from a management perspective, I think its true.

Yeah... I don't know what that means exactly. I think that the most nutritious, the most weight making food a calf gets is mother's milk. Isn't that true? Sure you want a calf to develop a rumen... but when it's eating grass at six months old it's still gaining "more" weight from the milk it's getting than from the grass its eating, isn't it?

So basically, my thoughts are that you need a cow that can give enough milk in the beginning that a calf won't scour and the cow won't get mastitis from not getting drained... and she needs to maintain or increase milk production as the calf grows while maintaining reasonable body condition. You don't need a cow that has too much milk, but you also don't need one that gives too little. Kind of a balancing act that depends on the genetics of the calf being able to efficiently use what the cow can produce.

When you say "supplement" milk are you talking about feeding the calf? In my experience feeding a calf that's still on a cow is a losing proposition. This is one of the reasons I can't see the logic when people talk about weaning early, because the milk a calf is getting is better than any kind of other material for gaining weight to weaning age.

 

[Travlr]

That's funny he says that, everything I've ever read says when a calf is with it's mother nothing will take the pressure off the cows milking ability. Milk always comes before creep feed, grass, or protien supplements when it comes to calf growth or taking the pressure off a cow.

We looked into this because of the late year droughts we've been having. I thought if we had creep feed out the calves wouldn't go for the milk as much and the cows would look better. Not saying the guy is wrong or the calves won't gain more it's just a different take than I've heard.

Would it be better to supplement the cow in those circumstances?

 

[Brute 23]

Yeah... I don't know what that means exactly. I think that the most nutritious, the most weight making food a calf gets is mother's milk. Isn't that true? Sure you want a calf to develop a rumen... but when it's eating grass at six months old it's still gaining "more" weight from the milk it's getting than from the grass its eating, isn't it?

So basically, my thoughts are that you need a cow that can give enough milk in the beginning that a calf won't scour and the cow won't get mastitis from not getting drained... and she needs to maintain or increase milk production as the calf grows while maintaining reasonable body condition. You don't need a cow that has too much milk, but you also don't need one that gives too little. Kind of a balancing act that depends on the genetics of the calf being able to efficiently use what the cow can produce.

When you say "supplement" milk are you talking about feeding the calf? In my experience feeding a calf that's still on a cow is a losing proposition. This is one of the reasons I can't see the logic when people talk about weaning early, because the milk a calf is getting is better than any kind of other material for gaining weight to weaning age.

I take it more as a management saying and not as literal science. They are all still grazing animals. That milk just supplements early development. It doesnt define that animal any more than corn so dont worship it to the point of detriment in other areas.

 

[Travlr]

I take it more as a management saying and not as literal science. They are all still grazing animals. That milk just supplements early development. It doesnt define that animal any more than corn so dont worship it to the point of detriment in other areas.

Well, it would be interesting to know what the average difference is between a 7 month old calf weaned at 7 months on a cow... and a 7 month old calf that was weaned at 4 months. Also interesting to know what the weights would be on a 4 month old weaned calf on just grass, and those that are supplemented.
I tried googling the difference between weights on a calf on the cow and one that was weaned early and on supplements but got nowhere in the short time I tried it.
I think it's reasonable to expect heavier weights with the calf on the cow.

 

[Silver]

Milk is obviously very important for awhile. A cow’s peak milk production is somewhere around d 60 to 90 days postpartum and declines from there so it’s important for a calf to have what it needs for the first couple of months as that determines how it will grow for the last 120 days or so it is on the cow. I like cows that have moderate to good milk production. Never seen a cow with poor milk wean a 750 lb calf at 205 days. And I’ve had issues with cows that have too much. All things in moderation.

 

[Brute 23]

Well, it would be interesting to know what the average difference is between a 7 month old calf weaned at 7 months on a cow... and a 7 month old calf that was weaned at 4 months. Also interesting to know what the weights would be on a 4 month old weaned calf on just grass, and those that are supplemented.
I tried googling the difference between weights on a calf on the cow and one that was weaned early and on supplements but got nowhere in the short time I tried it.
I think it's reasonable to expect heavier weights with the calf on the cow.

Im not sure what that would show that pertains to our discussion? No one is talking about early weaning.

I think k the test you are looking for is of you have 2 groups of cows both receiving adequate nutritious to produce their milk. One groups calves also get to graze through weaning and one group is only dependant on the cows milk through weaning. The difference in weaning weights would tell you how dependent on grazing and milk a calf actually is.

From my experience in these droughts, even if I keep good groceries to the cows where they are in good shape and have plenty of milk, the calves still wont match the weights of a good green year where the calf is also grazing.

 

[Lucky]

Would it be better to supplement the cow in those circumstances?

I think so but if you say that too loud you'll get your hand spanked.

I think the bottom line is your environment dictates the way you should run your herd and every year is different. If you are a die hard grass guy what ya gonna do when it doesn't rain for 4 months? If you are a guy that relies on supplements to support heavy stocking rates you aren't going survive high hay or feed prices long. It's all a year to year balance to me.

The Pride Ranch guy I posted in another section got ask why he doesn't use the Gregg Judy methods. He very politely gave his soil and forage analysis along with rainfall totals and gave a good reason he can't operate like Judy in his area. There's no magic wand to wave over the cattle....or at least we haven't found it yet.

I've got the experts from the NRCS office coming out in the morning, hopefully they've got the answers....

 

[Lucky]

I think early weaning is to help the cow regain condition and breed back during drought conditions. Never heard a serious cattle person wean at 4 months for any other reason.

In our area weaned calves don't gain very well on average pasture grass. They need feed to really grow.

 

[Brute 23]

To Luckys post earlier, I dont think creep feeding takes the pressure off a cow because milking is in their build as an animal. I do think creep could make up for the lack of grass nutrition that would usually go along with the milk.

 

[Brute 23]

I think so but if you say that too loud you'll get your hand spanked.

I think the bottom line is your environment dictates the way you should run your herd and every year is different. If you are a die hard grass guy what ya gonna do when it doesn't rain for 4 months? If you are a guy that relies on supplements to support heavy stocking rates you aren't going survive high hay or feed prices long. It's all a year to year balance to me.

The Pride Ranch guy I posted in another section got ask why he doesn't use the Gregg Judy methods. He very politely gave his soil and forage analysis along with rainfall totals and gave a good reason he can't operate like Judy in his area. Those no magic wand to wave over the cattle....or at least we haven't found it yet.

I've got the experts from the NRCS office coming out in the morning, hopefully they've got the answers....

No one person... Judy, Pharo, NRCS, etc can tell you what works best in your operation. You have to put the pieces together to do the puzzle. Ive always been a fan of crossbred cattle, crossbred dogs, etc because I never though any one group had it all figured it out. I have always had better luck mixing and matching their programs to my liking.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

I think early weaning is to help the cow regain condition and breed back during drought conditions. Never heard a serious cattle person wean at 4 months for any other reason.

I expect a cow to have a calf every ~365 days, gestation is ~283 days. That means there's roughly 82 days from calving to breeding. How early would you wean for her to be gaining condition to breed back?

 

[Brute 23]

I expect a cow to have a calf every ~365 days, gestation is ~283 days. That means there's roughly 82 days from calving to breeding. How early would you wean for her to be gaining condition to breed back?

You didn't ask me but I just did it so I will speak to it first hand.

Our #400ish steers brought $2100-2300. Heifers trailed a couple hundred bucks. In our conditions, the cost to feed that pair to #600 was not worth it. A #600 was bringing $200, maybe $300 more. The additional 3 months or what ever would cost us way more than the first 4. It was a "deminishing returns" situation.

When you pile a volatile/ high market, not 100% sinced up, etc, it was a good move for us.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

I get weaning and selling early because of drought but I was more curious about the weaning early to gain condition and help breed back part? Seems for that to really work your breeding season is long and your cow isn't calving every 365 days?

Weaning @400lb the cows should have been bred already a good while.

 

[Brute 23]

I get weaning and selling early because of drought but I was more curious about the weaning early to gain condition and help breed back part? Seems for that to really work your breeding season is long and your cow isn't calving every 365 days?

Weaning @400lb the cows should have been bred already a good while.

Pretty sure you are 30-45 days in. I need a calendar though. Im more of a picture person. This is making my brain hurt. LoL

April 1 service, Jan 8 calf (not for Brahman crosses)

Jan 8.. Feb 8 (1).. March 8(2).. April 8(3).. May 8(4)

Cutting it close depending on where they bred.